IMSA USCC in 2016 and 2017

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by TF110

Is it the AM drivers making the difference? That might be an explanation on the pace difference...

Probably part of it.... Leh Keen is no slouch, nor is Cooper, but, clearly they can't get the most out of the chassis. AJR knows how to make a car go quickly, I'd bet 99% of it is on the monkey behind the wheel.

It's plausible that the car is tough to get right, but, I'd be shocked if it's that far off the Park Place 991.

[Starfish Primer]

The AJR #23 has been quite dominant in QF and at the race starts , then they are failing to materialize that dominance into wins/podiums. The #23 is exploiting to the max the Silver driver regulations, and the Park Place 911 has been better in the last races.

The BOP is to make all the cars competitive without breaking the bank, not to guarantee a trophy to everybody. The driver component cannot be BOPed.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

"how it's being handled' infers to some that it's not right.

You could argue that multiple changes, or "unfair" changes is being handled incorrectly, but, again, it comes back to not beiong correct. The issue at hand here is the breaks they've been given or a lack therof.

Problem is, they've been outraced by the same chassis running the same BoP.

There doesn't have to be an actual problem for one to feel there is. The specific matter of the Porsches aside, I find it hard to believe the concerns within the series would be as widespread as I've been hearing if there wasn't cause for it. This was not the ideal first domino to drop if there is legit reason for concern, but it could still very well be just the start.

Best to keep a close eye on this going forward.

[Coach Ep]

Interesting to note that at the last round - under the same BoP - WT ran 2 cars in GTD (the extra car always intended as a one-off), knowing by their own standard they wouldn't be competitive.

Somehow, there's a marketing component in this decision, just not yet able to filter it.

We'll probably see them return in DPi next year, crying for an P-Am class after getting skunked at the Rolex!

[Matt]

There's no BOP issue with the Porsche. 5 poles this year out of 8 have been set by a Porsche in GTD, and the first and fourth fastest cars during the race at Road America were set by a 911. AJR's other car, the 23, has no issues with being at the front of the field. The two WeatherTech cars that were entered at Road America(22, and 77) have nothing to blame but their slow Am's(both of the MacNiels) for their lack of pace.



Breakdown by driver over the past 4 rounds:


It's gonna be fun watching Cooper get waxed in PWC.

[WolfsburgRS]

As they say the numbers don't lie.

Honestly I can't see how anyone can complain about BOP in GTD right now, considering the range of victors we've had, and with various teams and brands mixing it up at the front. You don't see Stevenson dropping out citing BOP. They've had pace, but they haven't been able to put it together. Magnus has. Of the teams running Porsches, the 23 has been at the top of the charts, still sits 3rd in championship points despite a run of bad luck.

You can't blame BOP for your own inability to put it together when it counts. Luck will always factor in as well, and a team with realistic expectations, and understanding the ebb and flow of life in general will keep their head down and work harder to produce results.

Agreed about PWC. It's a deeper pool than 4-5 years ago.

[nasportscar]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

As they say the numbers don't lie.

Honestly I can't see how anyone can complain about BOP in GTD right now, considering the range of victors we've had, and with various teams and brands mixing it up at the front. You don't see Stevenson dropping out citing BOP. They've had pace, but they haven't been able to put it together. Magnus has. Of the teams running Porsches, the 23 has been at the top of the charts, still sits 3rd in championship points despite a run of bad luck.

You can't blame BOP for your own inability to put it together when it counts. Luck will always factor in as well, and a team with realistic expectations, and understanding the ebb and flow of life in general will keep their head down and work harder to produce results.

Agreed about PWC. It's a deeper pool than 4-5 years ago.

BoP is a bogus excuse. If the team does go to PWC and Cooper runs, it will be interesting to see if he'll be a GTA driver. I would assume he is, but you never know.

I hope the team runs a GT and GTA entry...and Sprint X

[Matt]

Cooper and David can run as a team in Sprint-X and finish dead last in the Am-Am division.

[chernaudi]

Park Place's Porsche also has been yanked by the team from the VIR round, citing IMSA's BOP policy.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/pa...rawn-from-vir/

[Matt]

Second place finishers at the previous round, with the fastest class lap and citing BOP concerns, yahhh okayyyyy.

[jjvincent]

PP and WT are just whiners and are using BOP as a convenient excuse. If they would just work harder, they would win. This has nothing to do with the IMSA management. I've been saying since day one that the IMSA management is doing an excellent job and the reasons why these teams are dropping out is a problem that was around way before the merger.

[chernaudi]

It's just like what Marshall Pruett said on his Twitter page. Teams agreed to have BOP be part of the class, then complain when it gets changed up when data seems to support such a change.

He seems to basically be saying either have BOP and go along with it, or get rid of it and have to do everything performance-wise on your own. And I agree with him. Where was all the whinging and politicking for BOP in IMSA and the ACO back about 10-15 years ago?

Of course, I do blame the FIA and Maserati over the MC12 incident that lead to BOP being created in the first place.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

PP and WT are just whiners and are using BOP as a convenient excuse. If they would just work harder, they would win. This has nothing to do with the IMSA management. I've been saying since day one that the IMSA management is doing an excellent job and the reasons why these teams are dropping out is a problem that was around way before the merger.

Such as pay-drivers getting PO'd at being so slow that even their teammates can't overcome the shortfall and the money-man wanting to give up and go home?

[Fogelhund]

Maybe just BoP the cars electronically from the Control Tower, based upon who the driver is!!!

Everybody gets their own Performance Index.. That would be easy to manage.

Maybe just BoP them some more during the race, should they go outside their performance window.

[divxx]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Park Place's Porsche also has been yanked by the team from the VIR round, citing IMSA's BOP policy.

http://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/pa...rawn-from-vir/

I can imagine the post-race debrief:

"Team, we had pace for 4th place today, but unfortunately we lucked out and got 2nd instead. Truly, this is a dark day for Park Place Motorsports..."

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It's just like what Marshall Pruett said on his Twitter page. Teams agreed to have BOP be part of the class, then complain when it gets changed up when data seems to support such a change.

He seems to basically be saying either have BOP and go along with it, or get rid of it and have to do everything performance-wise on your own. And I agree with him. Where was all the whinging and politicking for BOP in IMSA and the ACO back about 10-15 years ago?

Of course, I do blame the FIA and Maserati over the MC12 incident that lead to BOP being created in the first place.

This is what happens when you spec out every car and keep the teams from individual development. Look at PWC. One week the Porsches are winning, the next, McLaren, then Caddy, then Nissan. The BOP literally becomes where everyone gets to win at some time during the year. With IMSA you have other things that come into play because the races are longer which results in variables outside the BOP.

This is what racing has become. It's almost like bracket racing. You can only go so fast, go too fast, you are penalized. So you run as close to the index as you can. I know it's already done for some endurance races in Europe and SCCA now does it for their Enduro Series.

Just get more used to PWC and IMSA having the same exact classes along with their own take on the BOP. Teams that are upset with one series, will just go to the other. When that doesn't work out they will go back. Teams have no sponsor commitments any more so they will just flip back and forth just to try to get what they want. If not, they quit or move to another class.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by jjvincent

This is what racing has become. It's almost like bracket racing. You can only go so fast, go too fast, you are penalized. So you run as close to the index as you can. I know it's already done for some endurance races in Europe and SCCA now does it for their Enduro Series..

Unfortunately this is the truth.

Play your cards right, to get the win you want, such as Ford at LM, which might have been the biggest mockery of BoP in recent memory.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what the alternative is.

[chernaudi]

Alternative is go back to the pre-BOP dominated days. Problem with that is that racing in almost every class and discipline is quite a bit more expensive than it was back then, too. Only reason why GT racing isn't insanely more expensive than it was back then (not counting inflation) is that the cars are still technically production based and quite a bit of the technology has become cheaper and more mainstream.

Sadly, prototype racing is still god-awfully expensive (Audi Sport used to do the ALMS on $15 million a season, plus whatever for Le Mans, by 2011 that got up to the $80-85 million a season range LM inclusive, now they're well into the lower 9 figures, and that's just one of the more extreme examples since it's LMP1), and BOP is being done outside of LMP1 (which uses a very different BOP format to about everything else, since major changes are only made once or twice a season) to cut on cost for carmakers (who are trying to make money off selling cars, parts and engineering), try to discourage spending (and development) by individual teams, and protect the factory teams from getting beaten by private teams who manage to squeeze more out of a car than the factory can. Especially now in GT racing.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

I had to laugh... Ed Brown took to twitter to complain they always put up with BoP inequalites...

Ed Brown is his own BoP.

[Fogelhund]

Maybe it's just me these days, I don't know... but I have loved GT racing for a long time. But these days, I don't get the feeling that the best car, best driver, or best team won most of the time... it just feels like, well, the team with the most favourable BoP on the day got the call.

[jjvincent]

The thing about cost is that it doesn't have to be a fortune to go racing. How long has everyone here heard about the next great thing because the field is going to be leveled and the racing is going to be cheaper? We homologate everything, rank the drivers, BOP the cars, run twice the amount of caution laps so everyone gets back in order and nobody gets an advantage, create a numerous amount of sub classes just to please every driving ability, penalize cars left and right after the race because they broke some oddball rule, etc...

It's to the point where we might as well just broadcast whatever racing video game that you can play on XBox or PS4. Why go through all of the trouble of buying cars, hiring crew, sending the crew all over the country, fixing cars etc.. when we could just save a bunch of money by doing it virtually. In the end, you'll still get the same results.

Plus, it's setting a bad precedent to quit before the end of the season just because you don't like the BOP. All that does is put the sanctioning body in a predicament. If they give in, then another team will just do the same thing. Taking your car and going over where the grass is greener won't result in happiness either. I suspect that in a few years with PWC and IMSA running GT3, GT4 and TCR, that each will have a slightly different BOP. So, if you are on the losing end at IMSA, go run PWC. When the BOP changes there and you are not winning, then go back to IMSA. When that doesn't work, quit and go run HSR.

Teams not getting what they want, publicly complaining and then leaving is going to become the new norm. People don't want to work hard and stick it out any more.

[MaskedRacer]

For all the talk has anybody actually withdrawn because of BoP issues up until now? In IMSA that is?

[jjvincent]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Maybe it's just me these days, I don't know... but I have loved GT racing for a long time. But these days, I don't get the feeling that the best car, best driver, or best team won most of the time... it just feels like, well, the team with the most favourable BoP on the day got the call.

Go watch PWC. It's really obvious that's the way GT racing is going to be for a long time. With that series, all it takes is 10 minutes of watching the first race for an event to see who picked the long and who picked the short BOP straw. After that it's just to see which GTA or GT Cup driver that will most likely ruin some front runners race when they get lapped. Just wait until next year when there's Pro, Pro-Am and Am-Am in the race. Hopefully the TBA on the schedule will be a figure 8 track. That would make for a better race.

[chernaudi]

Sadly, in 2004, the FIA in the FIA GT Championship with the MC12 let the BOP genie out of the bottle. And he's not going back in anytime soon anywhere. Of course, NASCAR also had BOP before the "common template" cars from 2003 to now.

[chernaudi]

Also, if this is a problem with the 911 GT3's performance, only fault I'd give to Porsche is that they took so long to come out with a direct 991-based successor to the 997 GT3. The 991 platform 911 GT3 RSR GTE car came out in 2013, when the road car did. Porsche only officially had the 991 911 GT3 out this season.

In that time, Audi, Mercedes-Benz, McLaren, BMW, Lamborghini and others raced not only their first generation GT3 cars, but also introduced their current generation cars. Porsche left the 997 GT3 to soldier on, while waiting to introduce the 991 GT3 only this season.

Even allowing that, I'm not sure there's any big problems with the car, though the current 991 GTE has struggled quite a bit in both IMSA and the WEC. But the GT3 is second in manufacturers' points in GTD right now and isn't that far behind Audi who lead the standings.

But you do have to think about some questions, like is the LMP1 project and development of the new "mid-engine" 991 GTE taking away from the GT3 program? Or have Porsche screwed up their sums on the 991 GT3? Or is it down to driver talent/team ability?