[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by kvenom

So they chose the wrong powertrain settings for the wet? Oh my...

surfing on some other forum/site, I've read that TS050 has traction issues because too much torque released on rear wheels (more or less the same kind of issues that ducati experienced for years in motoGP). Maybe they didn't test in very wet conditions and simply can't set up TCS, differentials and a lot of other stuffs; so, to avoid unpredictable situations, they simply cut power erogation. In dry conditions; audi, porsche and toyota seem to be very close.

Anyway, usually happen this kind of trouble with in cars in heavy rain condition... remember 2014 where new R18 weren't able to turn smoothly a single corner during silverstone race.

[kvenom]

Toyota is planning a 30-hour endurance test at Motorland Aragon later this month, prior to the second round of the season at Spa. Toyota Gazoo Racing technical director Pascal Vasselon told Sportscar365 they’ll test the Le Mans-spec aero package in Spain but will remain with its high-downforce package for Spa.

[cokata]

Doesn't look good.

[kvenom]

They were able to belt out a few good lap times, but on average they weren't really all that close. I think they'll have to rely on Porsche/Audi breakdowns/accidents to win anything this season.

[YorkshireLad]

I hope this was a once off... Great weekend, weather today was nice.

That audi though, damn it looked quick!


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[blankfile]

Looked like in clean air the toyotas were at the same speed as the others, just in traffic they lost out big time. which is exactly like wurz said during his interview

[Akrapovic]

They're further back than the result though. They got a free minute or so in the safety car. Over 6 hours they'd be about 3 minutes down. Bit disappointed in Toyota so far.

[cokata]

They gained a lot during FCY and the SC. Maybe they would have been 2 laps behind or close to that. And i don't buy that they run much less DF then Porsche and Audi, since their straight line speed was very slightly better.

[carbon_titanium]

is really strange, because during paul ricard tests and free practice, toyota gave the impression to be the one closest to porsche, while during the race both cars never had audi and porsche pace.
Hope they'll find some speed before spa.

[sssssssss]

they looked exactly the same last year: kind of on pace at paul ricard and silverstone, but then dropped off massively. they even had the second best "ideal" lap in qualifying at silverstone last year. so in qualifying trim, they were able to nail a 1:40.382 and an ideal 1:39.787 last year too. the good news this year is they've been significantly quicker in the race (over 1.5 seconds gain for their best lap).

[TF110]

They were never close at the prologue last year. This year they were 1.7 seconds faster. Look at the best sectors from today's race and you see the high downforce parts in sector 1&2, Toyota was slowest of the three teams. But sector 3 with the straights they were third and fourth best only behind Porsche. I think Spa should be a better track for them. And they'll have a better grasp on their car.

[tyronnezx]

Toyota Promoted to 2nd place after Audis exclusion

[Artur]

Toyota had around the same top speed as Porsche so, as cokata said, the LD excuse can't be used here.

I don't rule out Toyota for LM, yet, but they do need to find speed. I hope their LM aero package puts them in the contention and it seems they are focusing totally on that.

[cokata]

Their LD package must take the same step forward in lift to drag ratio as the hammerhead bodywork on the R18 last year had over the sprint package. Or put simply they will need to find a lot of straight line speed without shedding much downforce.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Artur

Toyota had around the same top speed as Porsche so, as cokata said, the LD excuse can't be used here.

I don't rule out Toyota for LM, yet, but they do need to find speed. I hope their LM aero package puts them in the contention and it seems they are focusing totally on that.

The speed trap is right after maggotts becketts, if you have better downforce through there, you're top speed will be better since you carry more speed through those turns. It's not like Fuji where you can hit 320kmh after a slow Panasonic turn. Their best lap was only a couple tenths off the best from Porsche, which shows they can keep up but not yet consistently.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by TF110

The speed trap is right after maggotts becketts, if you have better downforce through there, you're top speed will be better since you carry more speed through those turns. It's not like Fuji where you can hit 320kmh after a slow Panasonic turn. Their best lap was only a couple tenths off the best from Porsche, which shows they can keep up but not yet consistently.

Last year Porsche cornered visibly slower then the Audi, but it was more then 10kph up on the speed trap. The speed through maggots and becketts would matter if you get a read of the speed at the end of S2 which is right after that complex.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by cokata

Last year Porsche cornered visibly slower then the Audi, but it was more then 10kph up on the speed trap. The speed through maggots and becketts would matter if you get a read of the speed at the end of S2 which is right after that complex.

Porsche ran a Le Mans package while Audi had their highest downforce in 2015. Plus 4 vs 8mj. Totally different this year. Toyota don't have a super high downforce car, they said so themselves.

Caught this off twitter

[cokata]

Originally Posted by TF110

Porsche ran a Le Mans package while Audi had their highest downforce in 2015. Plus 4 vs 8mj. Totally different this year. Toyota don't have a super high downforce car, they said so themselves.

Caught this off twitter

And my point was that the speed through the Esses has no bearing on the trap speed which is taken just before Stowe.

[Aysedasi]

During free practice on Friday I was watching from the balcony over the pits and caught a couple of shots of Seb Buemi describing the actions of his car - very graphically. His hands and arms were going up and down like a fiddler's elbow.... I don't think he was very happy with the handling......

[carbsmith]

Go compare the event maximum speeds for the Prologue and Silverstone. At Paul Ricard the fastest cars through the speed trap by a mile were the TS050 and both Rebellions, distantly trailed by the CLM just ahead of Audi. Which follows the usual trend of the P1L cars setting great trap speeds because they lack downforce. At Silverstone the Rebellions were behind one of each factory car and the CLM was the slowest P1 in the speed trap because of their terrible exit speeds from Chapel. So of course it matters.

Last year the Audis were really slow in the speed trap, 5kph under even the CLM this year. Although it's worth noting the second #7 Audi's highest event speed was once again similar to the CLM, just both were 7kph faster than last year. The 294 from the #8 in the race seems like a big outlier, considering the Audi's were fastest in sector 1 but slowest in sector 3. If you look at the Porsches there's also a 5kph difference in top speeds while the Toyotas are nearly the same.

Basically look at it if you compare the second car for each manufacturer on the event maximum listing

Toyota 295.1

Rebellion 288.0

Porsche 288.0

Audi 285.0

Suddenly the TS050 looks pretty fast in a straight line doesn't it?

On a fast lap they were nearly equal to the Porsches in sector 1 and 3 as well, the inability to be as consistent over a race stint sounds like a lower downforce problem.

[brownninja97]

Afterthat last year i start to regard silverstone as the oddball of the season so ill leave Toyota's judgement for Spa

[Artur]

Originally Posted by TF110

The speed trap is right after maggotts becketts, if you have better downforce through there, you're top speed will be better since you carry more speed through those turns. It's not like Fuji where you can hit 320kmh after a slow Panasonic turn. Their best lap was only a couple tenths off the best from Porsche, which shows they can keep up but not yet consistently.

Nope. As cokata pointed out, last year there was a huge advantage for Porsche on the speed trap and we know that they had relatively poor downforce.

The S2 sensor is after Chapel(not maggotts becketts). The speed trap is located before the braking on Wellington Straight.

Hell, it doesn't even make sense what you said(no offense). If Toyota and Porsche had more downforce than Audi, as you implied, then how on earth could the R18 destroy them on a wet qualifying?!

Originally Posted by TF110

Porsche ran a Le Mans package while Audi had their highest downforce in 2015. Plus 4 vs 8mj. Totally different this year. Toyota don't have a super high downforce car, they said so themselves.

Porsche didn't develop a HD car pre LM but what they used, at Silverstone, was not exactly a LM package. For one thing, they used much more wing at Silverstone than at LM, obviously

Toyota's car didn't have "super high downforce" but that didn't mean they were low on drag either, ie, the car they raced yesterday had poor Downforce/Drag ratio

I think Toyota will do better at Spa, and even more so at LM. Let's wait and see.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Which follows the usual trend of the P1L cars setting great trap speeds because they lack downforce. At Silverstone the Rebellions were behind one of each factory car and the CLM was the slowest P1 in the speed trap because of their terrible exit speeds from Chapel. So of course it matters.

Last year the Audis were really slow in the speed trap, 5kph under even the CLM this year. Although it's worth noting the second #7 Audi's highest event speed was once again similar to the CLM, just both were 7kph faster than last year. The 294 from the #8 in the race seems like a big outlier, considering the Audi's were fastest in sector 1 but slowest in sector 3. If you look at the Porsches there's also a 5kph difference in top speeds while the Toyotas are nearly the same.

Basically look at it if you compare the second car for each manufacturer on the event maximum listing
Suddenly the TS050 looks pretty fast in a straight line doesn't it?

On a fast lap they were nearly equal to the Porsches in sector 1 and 3 as well, the inability to be as consistent over a race stint sounds like a lower downforce problem.

Not only the bold part but the LMP1-Ls have around 600HP from their ICE while the current LMP1-Hs are around 500HP, with the -10MJ.

But don't look on the "Event Maximum Speed" pdfs because it shows the best odd speed trap of each car, over the weekend!

Look into the Race's "Chronological Analysis". You will see that the Audis had exactly the same ~268kmh on their 2015 and 2016 speed traps, during it's fastest laps. Toyota #1 had 277kmh(#2 had 273), last year, and ~284kmh with both cars yesterday. Porsches, last year, had 282/284 while, yesterday, they had 278/272 on each car's fastest lap.

#2 made the fastest lap of the race on lap 159 with 272kmh on speed trap. Curiously, 2 laps latter, it reached 280kmh on speed trap and clocked the best S2 of the race. Just goes to show how odd drafts confuses things and we have to filter them

In summary, comparing 2015 and 2016' speed traps, the Audis had the same top speeds, the Toyota were considerably faster in 2016, and Porsche was the opposite of the Toyota.

[Spyderman]

The really interesting thing is to look at the Average Top Speeds for the first 70 laps (after eliminating the out laps):
#1 - 276.38
#2 - 275.38
#5 - 277.75
#6 - 277.29*
#7 - 271.99
#8 - 275.18

* Eliminated last lap where they did 80Kph on the straight and would distort the average.

N.B. I use the first 70 laps so that a comparison can be made with the #1 car.

[cokata]

I think the result is skewed somewhat due to lift and coast. Also i watched the telemetry during the race and the audi never went into 6th gear and was bouncing at 275kph on the limiter for a good 2-3 seconds before stowe.

when it came to straight line speed Toyota was a little quicker then Audi, while Audi was a little quicker then Porsche.