The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[kober]

Originally Posted by deggis

They have at least two chassis, three if the one crashed at LM is usable. See this:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=3937

What reason, other than racing two cars at Fuji, would there be to build fourth chassis?

BTW. Which chassis was raced at Silverstone? 12-02?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by kober

What reason, other than racing two cars at Fuji, would there be to build fourth chassis?

BTW. Which chassis was raced at Silverstone? 12-02?

Next year.

[kober]

Originally Posted by CTD

Next year.

Already?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by kober

Already?

Why not?
They will have time to build and nurse the car ready, if they should need it earlier (crash)

[deggis]

Originally Posted by kober

BTW. Which chassis was raced at Silverstone? 12-02?

Probably, from the quote it sounds like 12-04 might not have been ready yet and it is unclear what the state of the 12-03 is.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Articus

To add to mind boggling strategies of the car, fuel efficiency, drag etc. Benaoit Treluyer said in interview that they where told to go flatout from start to finish. That does not sound like the Audi was exactly saving fuel. So refreshing to see the Toyota absolutely dominate the Audi on pace. The Toyota lead for over 60% of the race!
Maybe the mileage is why Toyota complain about 2014 regs?

Sounds similar to a question asked in '07 about Audi and their potential pace in regards to the LMP1 vs LMP2 battle in the ALMS. And I have a similar answer: Were the drivers pushing? Sure as hell they were, but were the guys setting up the cars pushing as hard?

I think that the Audi guys were told to push as hard as they could while trying to save fuel. I do think that they though that they had a fuel mileage advantage based on LM, but they didn't expect it to be 4-6 laps when running a conservative fuel mileage map. And also, based on practice vs the race, it seems like Toyota cranked up the power to as far as it could go, while it seems that Audi backed down the power on their engine maps to get that fuel mileage.

It does make me wonder about the strategy for Audi if they'll continue to back things down for the race unless they need it. However, I don't expect Toyota's strategy to change much--I believe, like Peugeot, they'll go for speed every time. I think that Audi trying to play the fuel mileage game is what slowed them down more than Toyota in terms of practice vs race pace.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The additional downforce (and hence drag) of the TS030 compared to other LMP1 cars could be an explanation for its terrible fuel consumption.
You should not generalize. The privateer petrol cars have comparable fuel economy as Audi.

This is comparison of the duration of the stints for first five LMP1 cars. Safety car periods are marked in italic.

The privateers can run 50 min with 75 liter of petrol, so with 73 liter they could in theory run around 48-49 min. That is a lot longer than the 42 min stints that Toyota managed.

Note that the #2 Audi started the race with a fuel saving strategy. The team hoped that this would allow them to finish the race with one less stop:

I don't care to discuss times with you. I replied that chern didn't know if the NEW FENDERS added extra drag or if they were more efficient, then said if that's the case, how draggy are Audi's fenders? The privateers are no match for Audi, and couldn't hope to be doing 1:46's as a regular pace, their pace was closer to 1:50's. Toyota used their hybrid system to increase their speed to be as fast or faster than Audi. Which is what they said initially and I'm just reiterating. Of course running more wing is another factor to worse fuel economy, but I wasn't discussing that. So I can 'generalize' if I'd like, especially since it's a huge factor being that quick must use more fuel. My point was not to make assumptions as draggy fenders when we know nothing of that sort.

[Simmi]

Apologies if it's already been discussed in here. Hindy read out a tweet on air on Sunday that said the Toyota was smoking during the race.

I spotted the #7 car doing exactly the same thing early-evening at Le Mans lap after lap coming out of the Forest Esses. It looked like it was dropping fluid almost but wasn't leaving a mark on the track. It was only faint smoky haze.

Did anyone else notice that and why do you think that is?

[Peat]

We saw it smoking through maggots/becketts in the final hour as the sun was fading.

High aero loading in those areas - wheels rubbing on bodywork?

[chernaudi]

If Toyota's engine was smoking, considering that it's a gasoline engine, I'd believe that it would be a sign of an obvious engine problem. Since they didn't blow an engine at Silverstone, I'd have to question why that is.

But then again, the Audi R10 rarely smoked, except during pace laps or caution laps, and it was determined that it was oil smoke that happened at low engine speeds for prolonged periods. So, depending on when it was doing it, the color of smoke, and how often it did it, it could be that the engine is burning oil or maybe even excess fuel--remember, the Toyota engine to the best of my knowledge doesn't use DFI, so there may a case for unburned fuel in the exhaust doing it.

Or it could be bottoming out on the floor skid or some hard rubber or wooden skid on the front diffuser or elsewhere--R18's have put whisps of smoke out of the tail on occasion when that happened, especially at Eau Rouge at Spa.

And as far as the drag thing with the Toyota's redesigned front fenders, Toyota did the same thing that Audi did basically--shorted the front fenders to expose more of the front diffuser and to run larger dive planes, though I don't know how much drag that they're saving over just pulling an R8/R10/R15 or old 908 deal and just running twin dive planes on an LM-type nose--I'd think that the results would be at least somewhat similar.

Fact is that Audi and Toyota can afford such things, and I believe that's part of why the ACO and FIA want to either outlaw it or put restrictions on it under the 2014 rules--to keep the factory teams from developing special bodywork just for LM or the sprint races, and keeping that to the not as optimized but much cheaper relm of dive planes and gurneys on the cars.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Peat

We saw it smoking through maggots/becketts in the final hour as the sun was fading.

High aero loading in those areas - wheels rubbing on bodywork?

If it's under heavy loading and it's a bumpy track, I'd lean more towards the car bottoming out over the bumps and smoke from the skidblock.

[trickyd]

Based on nothing more than observation and no technical reasoning whatsoever, the Toyota just looks really boxy! It doesn't look aerodynamic, it looks like its ride height is too high too. So if it did create a shed load of drag, that would make sense!

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

If it's under heavy loading and it's a bumpy track, I'd lean more towards the car bottoming out over the bumps and smoke from the skidblock.

I didn't hear is scraping on the ground when I saw it but that could be it as at Le Mans it was coming out of the dip ahead of the rise on the run-up to Tetre Rouge.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by trickyd

Based on nothing more than observation and no technical reasoning whatsoever, the Toyota just looks really boxy! It doesn't look aerodynamic, it looks like its ride height is too high too. So if it did create a shed load of drag, that would make sense!

I've seen very few sportscasts that look as aerodynamically developed at the TS030, as to me it looks like an F1 car with covered wheels and a roof. I'm also sure it's just as low as an Audi.

But, like you, this isn't based on sound technical knowledge. It must be pretty aerodynamic though, because it's slower in a straight line but faster over a lap.

[gwyllion]

Another confirmation that a second car for Fuji is unlikely:

Toyota Racing technical director Pascal Vasselon said it’s unlikely a second TS030 Hybrid will race in the Six Hours of Fuji due to budget constraints. The Japanese manufacturer doesn’t have any additional on-track tests planned for this season and will focus on the four remaining races only.

source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...f-silverstone/

[FstrthnU]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Another confirmation that a second car for Fuji is unlikely:
source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...f-silverstone/

More importantly, Vasselon confirmed that there will be an all new car in 2014, design work has already begun

[Articus]

Well for Toyota to do what they have done on this kind of budget let it be a textbook lesson on how spend money on a car. Vasselon should write a book.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Articus

Well for Toyota to do what they have done on this kind of budget let it be a textbook lesson on how spend money on a car. Vasselon should write a book.

First recipient of this book: Toyota F1

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Salamus

First recipient of this book: Toyota F1

I'm sure Vasselon wasn't given much choice. He probably didn't have access to any company credit cards if you know what I mean lol.

[chernaudi]

That's been one of my fears about Toyota coming in and trying to outspend everyone and causing an escalating arms race. If they're willing to design a whole new car for just one year, what can that do to the LMP1 class?

However, to be fair, I think that we can basically accuse Audi of doing the same for every year since 2009, because in '09-'12, Audi has shown up every year with significantly revised cars that were pretty much all new.

I don't want LMP1, however, to turn into F1 where teams have to design or buy new cars every year just to keep a competitive edge. As with frequent rules changes, that's not healthy for the stability of the series--I don't even see Audi and TMG investing in stockpiling tons of bodywork that probably will only be used a handful of times as very healthy for the series and that only extends the gap between private and factory teams. I'm all for factory teams dominating, but I'm not for them bankrupting a racing series while doing it.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

That's been one of my fears about Toyota coming in and trying to outspend everyone and causing an escalating arms race. If they're willing to design a whole new car for just one year, what can that do to the LMP1 class?

One year? Its still 2012...The TS030 car will run in 2013. New car is for 2014 new regulations not 2013. Have no fears because we have been told from many sources that this is a low budget. Thats why they only run one car in WEC.

[chernaudi]

A post did hint that Toyota could build a new car just for 2013, which to me doesn't make sense--the TS030 has exceeded my expectations and those of a lot of people, and building one car just for one year doesn't make sound competition, economic or financial sense to me.

But then again, one can accuse Audi of doing pretty much the same exact with the R15 in '09/'10, the R18 last year, and the heavily modified R18 e-tron/Ultra for this year. Unless it's a safety issue or necessary due to a regs change, I don't want even factory teams to build new design cars for each and every coming season. That I feel will hurt the sport, and I'm already pretty critical of Audi and Toyota building different body kits as opposed to just adapting them to suit conditions.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

A post did hint that Toyota could build a new car just for 2013, which to me doesn't make sense

Well, if it's only a hint, and doesn't make sense. It's probably not something to believe .

1 Year cars at Le Mans is in my mind unrealistic ever, as all new cars "need" a shakedown year to fix the small issues that occur under racing.

[TF110]

They stated they could use the same chassis, but it could be a 'new car' next year. That's not saying it'll be a totally new redesign. But it could well be a big enough difference that the TS030 will be quite different than what we see today. You see what Audi did with the R18 from 2011 to this season.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

They stated they could use the same chassis, but it could be a 'new car' next year. That's not saying it'll be a totally new redesign. But it could well be a big enough difference that the TS030 will be quite different than what we see today. You see what Audi did with the R18 from 2011 to this season.

I doubt it will be more than a "+" model. But keeping the chassis means thats it limited to bodywork and engine they will change. This will also mean that it's visually a new car (like the R15->R15+) but many elements on the car remain the same.
The first and the current TS030 is also quite different looking, eventhough "little" was changed.
I'll stick to building a new car each year is unrealistic in Lmp racing.