[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[roderick]

I totally agree that silverstone is not suited for highest gear. However, I promise you guys, there is no 7th gear for toyota(like they never used it last year...)
if you dont believe me, give me a message after the Le Mans ~~

[GasperG]

You may be right, but how can you be so sure? We will just have to wait and see for that 350+ kph at LeMans.

Last Year Audi changed up to 7th gear at 297 to 314 kph:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DClxYaeVhzY

From that onboard TS050 is doing only 276 kph in 6th gear.

[carbon_titanium]

Assuming that onboard telemetry figures are genuine; last year, at le mans, toyota, audi and porsche had all 7 speeds. Porsche and Toyota upshifted to 7th earlier than audi that kicked it close to 320km/h.
In the second part of season (all track but fuji maybe) porsche used shorter ratios, and at COTA barely was able to hit 300km/h in 7th.

Beyond official claims, all we know so far is that porsche has still 7 speeds, toyota maybe has still 7 speeds but with silverstone settings reaches top speed in 6th; audi did the same in 5th. Just like last year, surely audi at spa will reach top speed in 6th; while at the end of kemmel or blanchimont we should find out if toyota has for real a 7th speed (if will be shown by some telemetry onboard).

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by GasperG

You may be right, but how can you be so sure? We will just have to wait and see for that 350+ kph at LeMans.

Last Year Audi changed up to 7th gear at 297 to 314 kph:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DClxYaeVhzY

From that onboard TS050 is doing only 276 kph in 6th gear.

keep in mind that's 2014 audi footage, not 2015.
here's a short one from 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBnvYTei8JU
shift happens just a bit after 310 km/h on the mulsanne-indianapolis straight.
i also remember the 2015 audi hitting over 350 km/h quite a lot of times on the first part of the mulsanne straight on the audi live telemetry.

[GasperG]

My point was that 7th gear is not used under 300 kph, so making conclussions based on Silverstone video that Toyota doesn't have 7th gear is pure bullshit.

[chernaudi]

I'd argue then that Toyota (as well as Audi and maybe Porsche) overgeared their cars for Silverstone. But in so many ways, compared to other WEC tracks, Silverstone is sort of an outlier with so many fast corners, only a couple of true slow corners, and short straights.

I'd bet that Silverstone is probably a hard track to set up for with a 6 speed gearbox in a prototype, let alone 7. To use all those gears, you'd need some pretty rapid gear changes or end up with gear spacing that doesn't make a lot of sense for the engine's torque and power curves. The added power and torque from the hybrid systems probably complicates matters further.

[carbon_titanium]

need to remember that engineers can change gear ratios race by race (GT3 cars can't, surely nissan lmp2 can't too, GTLM don't know but guess is possible for them). Audi had a slightly worse fuel milliage than porsche and toyota, and having a so long 4th and 5th help to keep lower rpm, improving a bit ICE consumes; Porsche seems to have the edge about fuel consumes, so they were not scared to set a so short ratios that 7th was upshifted already at 260km/h.
Anyway I agre;, the fact that toyota's didn't use 7th at silverstone, doesn't mean automatically that TS050 gearbox has only 6 speeds...

F1 have 8 speeds and gear ratios can be changed only once a season, surely in tracks like monaco, hungaroring or singapore, 8th speed is barely or never used at all.

[ederss7]

The TS040 had 7 gears. Just watch any racing game that has the TS040. Forza 6 and Project Cars, for example.
I believe the gear ratios used will vary according to many factors, inclunding drivers' driving styles, etc.
Unlike Audi, Toyota almost never use first gear.

[chernaudi]

Toyota did use 1st this year 1-2 times a lap on the onboards.

Toyota's biggest problem might be their turbo layout vs the Audi and Porsche turbos in the V arrangement. It's theorized in an Auto Motor und Sport article that the Toyota running it's turbos in the sidepods could make parasitic aero drag vs Audi and Porsche having a more or less clear shot for air to exit the radiator systems.

Same thing was a big problem when Courage switched the LC70 from the 4.5 liter Mugen V8 to the AER twin turbo V8 about a decade ago. They didn't gain top end speed because of the extra drag from having a congested sidepod flow-though.

[carbon_titanium]

porsche engine is very similiar to f1, with a small turbo directly linked to ERS-H and placed inside the V, and a lot of hybrid hardware placed under the drivetrain; surely toyota V6 twin turbo is a more conventional design, anyway if toyota has an overall power output close to porsche figures, I guess that they won't struggle to get easily 340-350km/h at le mans without any extra drag issues. After all 2015 TS040 was able to reach those speeds as well, even in 6MJ class and with their underpowered NA engine.

[GasperG]

The * one reads here has no limits ...

Engine power is determined with fuel flow and efficiency, these are not the old air restrictor days. All engines have very similar top end power and last year Toyota had MORE powerful engine simply because there was more fuel flow allowance than this year and because of engine design.

I will be damned if they managed to get 10% more efficiency with the new engine to offset the difference in fuel flow. There is just no way they accomplished that.

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by GasperG

My point was that 7th gear is not used under 300 kph, so making conclussions based on Silverstone video that Toyota doesn't have 7th gear is pure bullshit.

yes, i was trying to sustain that point too, since last year audi didn't use it up to even higher speeds, at least in lm.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

yes, i was trying to sustain that point too, since last year audi didn't use it up to even higher speeds, at least in lm.

Day after day, I'm convinced that Toyota have designed the TS050 especially for Le Mans : high speed at Paul Ricard, less down force at Silverstone, Rally allowed for Sarrazin after Le Mans only.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by GasperG

The * one reads here has no limits ...

Engine power is determined with fuel flow and efficiency, these are not the old air restrictor days. All engines have very similar top end power and last year Toyota had MORE powerful engine simply because there was more fuel flow allowance than this year and because of engine design.

I will be damned if they managed to get 10% more efficiency with the new engine to offset the difference in fuel flow. There is just no way they accomplished that.

lol! more than once toyota drivers and vasselon last year complained that their NA engine was the critical weakness of ts040... but anyway, you're right! how do I dare to compare toyota drivers opinions and our "community bullshift" to your endless knowledge!
I've read some rumors around that adrian newey can't sleep at night fearing that one day you could get his job at redbull...

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

Day after day, I'm convinced that Toyota have designed the TS050 especially for Le Mans : high speed at Paul Ricard, less down force at Silverstone, Rally allowed for Sarrazin after Le Mans only.

well, porsche should be better then...

great top speed also with their non le mans package, great handling and downforce at silverstone, no rally for dumas until the season end.

[godlameroso]

Originally Posted by GasperG

I'm thinking at one point where boost is too high there is a need of ERS-H. If we simplify Toyota gets around 50% extra power from twin-turbo, where Porsche gets 85% extra power from mono-turbo.

What if they're running a clever type of combustion, the beauty of forced induction is that you can more accurately control the air fuel mixture. What if they're using a type of stratified charge similar to what they're doing in F1. Not HCCI per se, but a type of pre chamber where the mixture is rich and easily ignitable and the rest of the combustion chamber is extremely lean but easily ignited by flame kernel in the pre-chamber.

[TF110]

Toyota's weakness was engine and hybrid. That shouldn't be anymore.

[TF110]

AMS saying Toyota will build a new engine for 2018 to coincide with 3 hybrid systems(?). Not sur eif this is confirmation based on google translate.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

AMS saying Toyota will build a new engine for 2018 to coincide with 3 hybrid systems(?). Not sur eif this is confirmation based on google translate.

AMS claim that the 10MJ ERS option would necessarily require three ERS - one ERS-K on each drivetrain plus an additional ERS-H - and that the bi-turbo concept currently used by Toyota would not be a proper basis for integrating such an ERS-H. Vasselon has allegedly confirmed this according to AMS.

[TF110]

Nothing saying Toyota would have to use an ers-h? Not sure if two kers systems would be enough, though.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

well, porsche should be better then...

great top speed also with their non le mans package, great handling and downforce at silverstone, no rally for dumas until the season end.

I wasn't looking for a comparison. I think Toyota have set their priorities in this way.
PS : Dumas will race at Pikes Peak.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Nothing saying Toyota would have to use an ers-h? Not sure if two kers systems would be enough, though.

Originally Posted by AMS

Doch es gibt noch einen weiteren Nachteil: Wenn das Reglement ab 2018 die Hybridklassen bis auf 10 MJ hochzieht, müssen die Hersteller wohl oder übel auf drei Rekuperationssysteme setzen. Neben KERS an Vorder- und Hinterachse bleibt da nur die Abgasenergie-Rückgewinnung. Die ist aber mit einem Biturbokonzept nicht darstellbar, wie auch Toyota-Technikchef Pascal Vasselon bestätigt. Ergo muss Toyota für 2018 abermals einen neuen LMP1-Motor auf Kiel legen.

AMS claim that 10MJ is only possible with three ERS, namely two ERS-K plus one ERS-H, and that the addition of an ERS-H is not conceivable with a twin-turbo engine concept, as allegedly confirmed by Vasselon.

Now, this is AMS' point of view.

[GasperG]

ERS-K is not exploited to it's full potential, braking power even at circuit like Silverstone are well over 1,000 kW, currently no team has ERS-K more powerful than 368 kW, so there is quite a bit of reserve. But then again 500 kW regen may not be enough for 10 MJ, maybe something up to 600-700 kW would be needed.

The problem with ERS-K is also one MGU per axle. That means no "smart" braking power per wheel, because of differential, because of that friction brakes must always cooperate even if ERS-K alone would be enough for all the braking power.

----------------------------
Toyota PR before SPA:
http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/sp...-gazoo-racing/

The two TS050 HYBRIDs will race again in high-downforce specification, as also used at Silverstone

[Artur]

Looking at this brembo info:
http://f-1.link/wp-content/uploads/2...0-847x1200.jpg

I wonder if the braking power for each corner is the average value or the peak one. Anyway, I used it as the average value and multiplied by the time on braking for each corner and summed it all.

The total energy recovered, per lap, IF(I think it is because some brakings have less Gs but more time and it has higher power mentioned) that is the average braking power would be around 12.7MJ

GasperG, R18 reachs 4G on the faster corners but, on braking, the G is 2 or 2.5 max. Why is that so? Why is the braking on LMP1 so poor? It's peak should be even higher than cornering because drag helps(as it has always been on F1).

[GasperG]

Being not that aggressive on the brakes gives you more time to charge the batteries at max kW rate car allows it. Weather this is good for overall lap time is not for me to answer. Also F1 car has more tire grip and can decelerate with higher G force as LMP1, but difference should really not be that big.

Every track has diferent MJ per lap based on track length and some other factor (I don't know where to find exact info on that). MJ class is for LeMans length of 13.6 km per lap, Silverstone is only 5.9 km. If my info is correct only 4 MJ (or is it 5.36 MJ?) are allowed to recuperate in "8MJ class" in Silverstone.

On that infographic, there is also some other general information:
- Braking energy produced during the GP: 85 kWh/52 laps = 1.63 kWh/lap = 5.86 MJ/Lap - This seems like a small number, so either braking power is only peak power or something else is way off.

- only 10% of time car is braking: 100 sec. lap = 10 s on brakes with 368 kW = 1 kWh/lap = 3.6 MJ/Lap (less then allowed).

- average deceleration: 4.1G