The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

It all depends on the definition of "new car". The 2010 R15+ looked radically different than 2009 R15, but it still had the same tub and the same drivetrain. The 2012 R18 looks fairly similar to the 2011 R18, but it has a new tub, all the weight saving (e.g., gearbox casing) and the addition of the hybrid system.

In January Toyota said that they might change the tub for next year if this was deemed necessary. Next year, the car might have a new engine and a updated aero package can surely be expected.

[Gingers4Justice]

I simply don't believe anyone at TMG is foolish enough to build an entirely new car for next year. The TS030 is a base and it already looks almost completely different to the car which emerged in the winter.

I'd expect it to look more different still next year. This year is very clearly about learning and development, and the TS030 still hasn't finished its juvenile stage. Next year they will want a good result at Le Mans - possibly a win - and they can't do that without revising, revising, and revising again.

It's something Audi have always done.

[Simmi]

It certainly struck me during the Silverstone race that I really REALLY want Toyota to win Le Mans.

When you look back at all the Toyota efforts down the years. The man-hours and the near-misses. Not just from them but for all Japanese manufacturers. If Toyota could become only the second Japanese entry ever to win I think that would be huge for the country and for the sport. What better shot in the arm for the AsLMS, the other manufacturers and teams to return to the fray.

I have nothing against Audi at all and pure respect. That's just the way it's playing out for me right now. I might have to do the unthinkable next year and don a 'Toyota Hybrid' cap!

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It certainly struck me during the Silverstone race that I really REALLY want Toyota to win Le Mans.

When you look back at all the Toyota efforts down the years. The man-hours and the near-misses. Not just from them but for all Japanese manufacturers. If Toyota could become only the second Japanese entry ever to win I think that would be huge for the country and for the sport. What better shot in the arm for the AsLMS, the other manufacturers and teams to return to the fray.

I have nothing against Audi at all and pure respect. That's just the way it's playing out for me right now. I might have to do the unthinkable next year and don a 'Toyota Hybrid' cap!

I agree with that. I came to dislike Toyota when they were in F1 on the basis they thought having the biggest budget of anyone would get them success, and then quitting when it didn't.

They seem to have a different attitude in sports car racing though, which is nice to see. I've been amazed with the progress they've shown so far. And dare I say it? Even at this early stage, they seem to be racing more honourably than Peugeot ever did...

Gained massive respect for them when Nakajima and the boss went and apologised to Delta Wing at Le Mans. Yes, it was a stupid move, but they had the good grace to know that and say sorry.

[DeathOrGlory]

And I reckon Kaz was a revelation at Silverstone. He was clean through the traffic and deviously fast.

Well before Silverstone he had the Suzuka 1000km in Super GT so he's able to get some seat time in a proper enduro.

And changing cars every year? Look at Peugeot! The 908 Hdi FAP was given updates year after year. The only time Pug changed everything was the 908, and even that looked like the 908 Hdi FAP.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

And I reckon Kaz was a revelation at Silverstone. He was clean through the traffic and deviously fast.

Yeah, I dare say that he shocked almost everyone. Looks like working alongside his two co-drivers is bringing him up to a fantastic level.

[gwyllion]

Some interesting comments from Wurz regarding Silverstone and the next WEC races.

In my first stint, the car was really faultless and the balance was good. Then we started to have problems with balance throughout the race, which became worse and worse. So we will have to investigate that because with the Audis it seemed to be the opposite.

Realistically we have seen that there are two tracks which are not that great for us in terms of high altitude, at Sao Paolo and Fuji.
The bottom line is, without moaning too much, we are just down on horsepower, which is a regulation issue.

source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102031

[Articus]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

And I reckon Kaz was a revelation at Silverstone. He was clean through the traffic and deviously fast.

Well before Silverstone he had the Suzuka 1000km in Super GT so he's able to get some seat time in a proper enduro.

And changing cars every year? Look at Peugeot! The 908 Hdi FAP was given updates year after year. The only time Pug changed everything was the 908, and even that looked like the 908 Hdi FAP.

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Yeah, I dare say that he shocked almost everyone. Looks like working alongside his two co-drivers is bringing him up to a fantastic level.

Yes Nakajima was blazing! They probably punished him in the TS030 simulator with a "24 Hours of Toyko Gridlock" simulation . The young lad learned quick! Super impressed. Sadly he has now developed a fear of stop lights....and pedestrians

[gwyllion]

Wurz predicts that Toyota will struggle at Sao Paulo with its NA engine. McNish on the other hand thinks that they will be strong because of the nature of the circuit.

Looking at Toyota, they were very good. They impressed at Le Mans. They impressed in the pre-test and they impressed at Silverstone. They weren't necessarily the fastest in qualifying. But when it came to the race itself, Alex Wurz overtook Tom with the acceleration at the start and then overtook Andre in traffic and proceeded to pull 20 seconds. He had a very strong race car.

There were areas where they are not as efficient as Audi, fuel economy being one of them. But their lap pace is very good. I think it will be a big problem in Sao Paulo, because they seem to be very fast in low speed corners and that looks like to be one of their strengths.

source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...lverstone-wec/

[TF110]

Interlagos circuit is counter clockwise, so that may be better for Audi in terms of viewing, but that advantage is probably minimal. The elevation aspect was on my mind as well. I wondered about that power deficit, before there was any story on it from the Toyota guys, being an aspect of the equalization of the cars. How will the ACO/FIA handle this is they do at all? I guess it will come down to the 'hybrid zones' here. If they're favorable out of slow corners it's down to the hybrid, so depending on where the release points are maybe Toyota's power disadvantage won't be much of a factor.

[gwyllion]

The braking zones that have been defined for Sao Paulo can be found on the FIA website.

On http://www.audi-liveracing.com/deskt...e-circuits.jsp Audi gives an estimate for the speed around the track:

• braking zone #1 (= turn #1): 95 km/h (1st gear)
• braking zone # 2 (= turn #4): 130 km/h (2nd gear)
• braking zone # 3 (= turn #8): 85 km/h (1st gear)
• braking zone # 4 (= turn #10): 75 km/h (1st gear)
• braking zone # 5 (= turn #12): 100 km/h (2nd gear)

All those slow corners should really suit Toyota's hybrid system.

[TF110]

I saw that a little after I posted that comment, looks like the only corner that won't be a Toyota hybrid advantage in terms of usage is out of turn 4 after the second straight.

On another note it seems Toyota broke the track record (race) lap time at Silverstone with the 1:44.059, besting the time set by Peugeot.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Wurz predicts that Toyota will struggle at Sao Paulo with its NA engine. McNish on the other hand thinks that they will be strong because of the nature of the circuit.
source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...lverstone-wec/

I think the Toyota will also be fast there. They're able to keep a higher corner speed and couple that to the superior supercapaccitor hybrid system I think it will be as fast as the Audi. I also think the Ultra will be the fastest Audi at Sao Paolo.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

On another note it seems Toyota broke the track record (race) lap time at Silverstone with the 1:44.059, besting the time set by Peugeot.

Wow! The car is quick no doubt. Now hopefully can they tame the fuel mileage issue without damaging the performance. I doubt 10,000rpm is doing them any favors.

[TF110]

A good read for the techies and anyone interested in Toyota's R&D testing http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/in...-testing-area/.

[tyronnezx]

new pics from interlagos

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...0330628&type=1

[TF110]

Looks to be the same package from Silverstone, can't spot any changes.

[gwyllion]

A very good interview with Vasselon regarding fuel economy and strategy: http://www.dailysportscar.com/viewAr...D2E10C85AFF5A2

Anything we do to reduce pace to secure the need not to take a splash cannot cost us more than 0.2 seconds per lap as it would, over the full distance be a less efficient use of the time available!

Toyota is not yet talking to the ACO to address their fuel stop disadvantage.

The final factor, and the one I hear about most often, is the balance between petrol and diesel provided by the regulations, tank size, fuel flow etc. and obviously we look to that too – For now though we are playing with the cards that are dealt – We might be talking to the ACO about the future regulations for 2014 and 2013 but we will not be seeking to change those for 2012 to find a solution, we’ll be looking within, to ourselves, our strategy, our efficiency and our speed to find solutions there. That is the correct way to proceed with a new programme, do all you can before making the problem somebody elses!

[chernaudi]

I'm still wondering why they're so horrid on fuel economy compared to the privateer cars, which can go nearly as far as Audi can. I do wonder if their engine problems have caused them to run a rich fuel mixture, or are they cranking up the power to get speed at the expense of economy? I can't think of one thing that's costing them 10-15 minute worth of stint time per fuel run, but even at LM they were often a lap short of Audi and the privateer brigade, and it just seems to be getting worse on the shorter tracks.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm still wondering why they're so horrid on fuel economy compared to the privateer cars, which can go nearly as far as Audi can.

Vasselon answers that exact question in the interview. If you go faster, you burn more fuel.

In Silverstone the privateers were 2-3 seconds off pace from Toyota (1:44.059 for Toyota vs 1:46.686 for Strakka vs 1:47.074 for Rebellion) and 5 laps down on Toyota (189 vs 194 laps), which is a difference in performance of 2.5%.

Vasselon claims that they did not use the full tank capacity in Silverstone. The calculations from Paul Truswell confirm that Toyota added only 69-70 liter of petrol every pit stop, and not 73 liter. Toyota did 23 lap stints, which means a fuel consumption of 3 liter per lap. With the 3-4 liter that they left in the tank, they could have indeed done one extra lap.

The privateers have a bigger fuel tank (75 liter). Assume that the privateers used around 73 liter of fuel every stint and Toyota only 69 liter, which is a difference of 5.5%.

[chernaudi]

It doesn't explain why they're losing 10+ minutes a stint to Audi for pitstop times unless their fuel mileage is that horrible--Audi were also stopping short with a couple of liters in the tank. Also raises the question of if Toyota is that much faster than the private teams, or if the private teems are sandbagging.

But since Rebellion and TMG are though to be using at least similar engines, Toyota should be able to get within a certain distance of what Rebellion can do, even with being much faster.

Problem at Interlogos is that Audi in sessions 1&3 were at times quite a bit faster than Toyota, but then again, at Silverstone Audi were faster in practice and qualifying, then they seemed to back off for the race, so, on speed, could Audi be sandbagging to save fuel?

[TF110]

Why would a private team sandbag? It gains them nothing. Toyota just use more fuel because they need to go fast. They're downforce probably adds to that. Silverstone was the first time they ran a race with it. See how that plays out here in Sao Paulo. Here is their qualifying report.

[gwyllion]

This quote in the Toyota report is funny:

Today’s result marks a milestone in the development of hybrid powertrains; it is the first time a super capacitor-based system has earned pole position for a major international race.

How about the pole of hybrid Audi in Spa, Le Mans and Silverstone and the victory of the hybrid Audi in Le Mans and Silverstone?

[TF110]

Of course, Toyota does their own PR. Reading through Toyota's releases they say 'competition' but don't mention Audi by name. I wouldn't either. Besides, Toyota already beat Audi to a 24hour hybrid victory with their Supra . Not as big as LeMans but still a first. Wonder how they'll spin their PR if they win Brazil... first Toyota Hybrid to win a world recognized endurance race? First supercapacitor Toyota to win? First capacitor powered hybrid to win? haha, it's all in the wording isn't it!

[Adam43]

Ah, fair play.