[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[Adam43]

I suspect you don't have the complete data here; whether it is peak or average. There is much more potential for braking force at high speed due to the downforce and of course that reduces very quickly under braking. So the peak and average will be very different. In cornering this is less of an issue as the speed doesn't vary as much through the 'event'. Without detailed data I don't think your going to be able to judge this.

[Artur]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Being not that aggressive on the brakes gives you more time to charge the batteries at max kW rate car allows it. Weather this is good for overall lap time is not for me to answer. Also F1 car has more tire grip and can decelerate with higher G force as LMP1, but difference should really not be that big.

F1 tires are made for much lighter cars and are much softer, as well, so one would expect it to have far more grip but comparing speed on low speed corners points otherwise. Some months ago, I looked into a few QLF and race LMP1 onboards and compared that with F1 onboard poles. What I found out is that the LMP1s have the same cornering speed at the slow corners(80-120km/h range) as the F1s, despite the much tougher enviroment for the Michelin tires. So I think you cannot attribute F1's much better braking to tire grip but rather, as you very well said, it's more to do with LMP1s having to brake for a much longer time(at 360kW), specially when comparing QLF laps, to recover it's allocated energy.

Originally Posted by GasperG

Every track has diferent MJ per lap based on track length and some other factor (I don't know where to find exact info on that). MJ class is for LeMans length of 13.6 km per lap, Silverstone is only 5.9 km. If my info is correct only 4 MJ (or is it 5.36 MJ?) are allowed to recuperate in "8MJ class" in Silverstone.

On that infographic, there is also some other general information:
- Braking energy produced during the GP: 85 kWh/52 laps = 1.63 kWh/lap = 5.86 MJ/Lap - This seems like a small number, so either braking power is only peak power or something else is way off.

- only 10% of time car is braking: 100 sec. lap = 10 s on brakes with 368 kW = 1 kWh/lap = 3.6 MJ/Lap (less then allowed).

The amount of releasable energy per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by factor 1.55

So, it's allowed 4.02MJ for the 6MJ class, at Silverstone. And 5.35MJ allowed for the 8MJ class.

I think the 12MJ that I calculated is for peak kW figures and the average is obviously much lower so this 5.86MJ seems about right for F1. The LMP1s have less potential energy to recover as their top speeds are much inferior, and they have to brake for far longer than F1's 10s otherwise they won't recover their allocated value, at Silverstone.

As for Spa, I read here that it's 101kWh for the GP's brake energy dissipation, so 101kWh/44 laps =~2.3kWh/lap = 8.28MJ/lap

Also, 13% of braking time for F1, and the average GP lap might be around 1m53s, so 14.7s of braking. With LMP1s max braking power of 368kW and 14.7s of braking, LMP1s will recover 5.4MJ and Audi is allowed 4.77MJ there while Porsche and Toyota 6.37MJ

So I think that Audi and Toyota will be able to fully recover their allocated energy at Spa, unlike Silverstone, without compromising their speed(braking for far too long). Sorry for the OT

[GasperG]

I dug up a better infographic


Source for all F1 circuits:
http://f-1.link/brembo-brake-circuit...ty-cards-2015/

SPA has the potential to get 41% more energy from braking than Silverstone at only 18% longer track.

SPA will definitely be a better representation of ERS-K potential.

[cokata]

The reason F1 cars brake so much better then P1 is not due to recovery (even before the hybrids came P1s were mediocre at braking). There are 3 big reasons:

-Weight
-Weight distribution
-Drag

A lighter car will always brake better then a heavier one if all is close to equal. There is much less energy needing to be dissipated, and even though the heavier car will have more load and grip on the tires it won't be enough to compensate for the extra weight.

F1 cars are very rear heavy and that is exactly what you need to get a better braking performance. When the car is braking it dives quite a lot front dive and that means that majority of the weight (and grip) goes to the front and the rears don't have a lot to do. And when there is a load transfer you don't get a perfect scaling ( 30% higher front axle load wont yield you 30% more grip from the front tires). A car that is 50-50% during braking would be ideal. F1 cars get close to that, only 60% of the braking is done by the front brakes, sometimes even less then that. LMP1 cars are much more front heavy, and therefore probably 70% of the braking is done by the front axle.

And the aero drag is probably the biggest difference. Whenever you are braking you are limited how much force you can apply before you lock up by the amount of grip of the tires. But aero drag has no effect on that it's "free" in a way and F1 cars are much draggier than P1 cars.

[TF110]

This is where dual kers helps out a lot. Braking systems built in with the kers helps the car stay planted. Plus all p1's now have that brake migration system Toyota started in '14.

Toyota needs more time with the battery system to understand how it differs from the capacitor. The Silverstone race was more of an experiment and learning process than an actual gauge of performance. I think Spa should be a great race.

here's a picture of the cockpit
https://www.instagram.com/p/BE3o2T3OuWY/

[gustavobamba]

Why No one (AUDI;TOYOTA and PORSCHE ) go to SPA with a full le mans bodywork?!?!?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Why No one (AUDI;TOYOTA and PORSCHE ) go to SPA with a full le mans bodywork?!?!?

I think Audi is pretty close to it based on their twitter image.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think Audi is pretty close to it based on their twitter image.

Yes they are

[gustavobamba]

So Audi will have a "decent" top speed at the end of the straight.

Porsche last year did: 319,5 km/h

Let´s see if Audi can match that speed... they are using Low drag spec right?!?!?!?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Toyota also seem to be running a low-drag package at Spa:

(source: John Dagys)

[GasperG]

Interesting in their PR they wrote they will be running high downforce package, as also used at Silverstone.

Anyway, this is the field where they will have to show their game, since they didn't have a true high DF package suited for Silverstone.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Interesting in their PR they wrote they will be running high downforce package, as also used at Silverstone.

Anyway, this is the field where they will have to show their game, since they didn't have a true high DF package suited for Silverstone.

Toyota's PR statement is rather weird. Why would Toyota refrain from taking advantage of the Spa event to race their LM-spec car ? Could be that Toyota are running some interim package and are still working on the final aero package for LM though.

[TF110]

The same "high downforce" package ran at Silverstone hit 323kmh during the prologue. So it's not very draggy. I noticed that they had a little flap at the leading edge of the front fender holes at Silverstone. You can see it in this photo right above the black part of the headlights



That little flap is missing on the post above and this photo from Spa here-

[Adam43]

Taken from the Audi thread (!):

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The new engine probably weighs as much or more than the old V8 did. They lost two cylinders, but the turbochargers and induction piping and intercoolers add weight.

Also, there's a claim that the TS050 is overweight per the regs. I doubt that they lost weight on the engine end just due to the added parts associated with a turbocharged engine.

Do we have a link to anything on the TS050 being overweight? Or at least I was sat in a pub in Cologne and...?
It's not my understanding.

[chernaudi]

Probably mentioned in the WEC Prologue thread or wherever that was discussed, along with alleged tire wear issues.

TS050 is on the cover of June's RCE.

[Adam43]

I'm going to take that as unsubstantiated at best then.

[TF110]

Toyota's practice PR with driver quotes. Drivers seem happy. I hope they can make a race out of it.

[Spyderman]

Very nice sector times ...especially S2.

[cokata]

LOL slower than last year.

[sssssssss]

well, everybody is, so far.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

well, everybody is, so far.

The TS040 was a very underwhelming car, and SPA was one of it's worst showings.

[kvenom]

They didn't lose as much time as Porsche and Audi, but they were much slower last year so they didn't gain any ground...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by kvenom

They didn't lose as much time as Porsche and Audi, but they were much slower last year so they didn't gain any ground...

They're the best non-Porsche which is something they rarely (as in almost never) archived last year, so it's not hard to see the progress.

Also, Toyota has never been about getting poles, even during their dominant 2014 season Porsche has largely dominated the qualifying sessions.

[Bubak]

Some nude views of TS050. (source https://twitter.com/Mobil1TheGrid/st...83496390737921 )

[Acid09]

What's particularly encouraging is the fact that despite the drivetrain package is all new, Toyota seems to have zero reliability problems this year so far.