[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

Kinda sad. His stint was cut short because the car died on him during his stint. Who drove the electric only lap? Hopefully Nakajima

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Ok, so they did 7 km at around 80 kph, how much energy would be needed? I think that 2.2 kWh (8 MJ) should be more than enough, maybe they even pumped up the tires for lower rolling resistance

I forgot they didn't have 8MJ for the lap, because this is not LeMans, how much did they have? 5 MJ? 1.4 kWh? Still possible for 7km@80 kph.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by TF110

Kinda sad. His stint was cut short because the car died on him during his stint. Who drove the electric only lap? Hopefully Nakajima

Timing sheets say it was Buemi.

[TF110]

Car by car report from DSC talks about there being more charge left in the battery after Buemi's electric lap.

despite Sebastien Buemi losing power to drive the car beyond La Source after crossing the line, showed substantial charge left in the battery pack – More to learn (and to unlock) from this package yet for Toyota)

Toyota's batteries seem to be plenty powerful. I think this car has a load of potential all things considered. Sad about the engine issue. Davidson remarked they tested plenty and this never came up. At least they have time to fix it before LM.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Car by car report from DSC talks about there being more charge left in the battery after Buemi's electric lap.

Toyota's batteries seem to be plenty powerful. I think this car has a load of potential all things considered. Sad about the engine issue. Davidson remarked they tested plenty and this never came up. At least they have time to fix it before LM.

Buemi most likely left the pits for that last electric-only lap with a fully charger battery (it being to be remembered that the ES - i.e.batteries - can be charged while the car sits stationary inside the garage). I don't believe that one should read too much into the fact that there was still some energy left in the batteries at the end of that lap.

Funnily, the car stopped on track after crossing the start/finish line and marshals had to push the car to the parc fermé.

[Adam43]

It might be a little Colin Chapman to say this, but that might indicate the battery is too 'big' or it could have gone faster.

Random thought that is probably not linked to this, but it did make me think it. Do you think the teams put 'bigger' batteries in to allow for any degradation through the race?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by TF110

At least they have time to fix it before LM.

That's the one silver-lining here. This sort of issue instantly reminded me of Peugeot's 2010 fiasco at Le Mans which turned out to be rooted in faulty parts/wrong material choice.

If it's that kind of issue it should well addressable in a month, a substantial design flaw within the engine probably wouldn't be, but that one isn't too likely if this really never happened during testing (which I find believable because they seemed genuinely flabbergasted by it).

If they can get the car reliable and squeeze even more performance out of it they should be well setup for Le Mans. Still, I feel this year's race might come a tad early for the TS050, I expect the car to get stronger over the latter part of the season and give them the chance to really attack in 2017, hopefully with that third car as well.

[Rennen]

Any Racing Engine can fail at any time, it's just one of those things that can happen!

Dissapointing when you are leading, but mechanical failures are a part of motor sport.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It might be a little Colin Chapman to say this, but that might indicate the battery is too 'big' or it could have gone faster.

Random thought that is probably not linked to this, but it did make me think it. Do you think the teams put 'bigger' batteries in to allow for any degradation through the race?

It would make sense, but these teams seem to be weight conscious so who knows? I think they may have more juice in the battery than what they know how to extract. They made gains with the capacitor over it's lifetime.

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by TF110

Car by car report from DSC talks about there being more charge left in the battery after Buemi's electric lap.

Toyota's batteries seem to be plenty powerful. I think this car has a load of potential all things considered. Sad about the engine issue. Davidson remarked they tested plenty and this never came up. At least they have time to fix it before LM.

The only surprising thing here is Toyota being surprised by this, if that is true. Don't they know how their battery pack and battery management system (BMS) works?

Generally speaking full capacity of any li-on battery pack is newer unlocked by the management system and that is for a reason - longer life. With the race car the most crucial part is power rating, capacity comes second. I wouldn't be surprised if BMS allows only 40%-60% of the capacity to be utilized.

[roderick]

Originally Posted by GasperG

The only surprising thing here is Toyota being surprised by this, if that is true. Don't they know how their battery pack and battery management system (BMS) works?

Generally speaking full capacity of any li-on battery pack is newer unlocked by the management system and that is for a reason - longer life. With the race car the most crucial part is power rating, capacity comes second. I wouldn't be surprised if BMS allows only 40%-60% of the capacity to be utilized.

Regards with battery for Hybrid system, They usually use battery SOC from 80~30% Given their requirement of only having have to complete a lap. I believe they've charged the battery to almost full in the pit, then used almost all (below20%) to get the most out of the cells.

They were surprised cos no one has done it before and it was design to be used with high discharge and charge cycle throughout the lap.(max speed was just above 100kph, going down the slope must have been zero throttle.

[GasperG]

True it has newer been done before, but car dying and surprise to see there was charge left is a surprise statement. But it could be reporter misinterpreting Toyota statement.

[MyNameIsNigel]

There is a good read about the TS050 in the latest issue of RCE.

Seems that they had to do some compromise on the TS050 in terms of the through-flow aero concept of the car. It was originally contemplated to improve air flow in the side pods and around the engine (at that time it was still contemplated to stick with the NA V8 engine) but that the turbos and intercoolers now sit right in that path, which compromises drag. We shall see if this becomes an issue at Le Mans where aero efficiency and low drag are key.

The article also confims that Toyota may have to design a new engine (mono-turbo ?) or have to find a very clever ERS-H solution that would be compatible with the twin-turbo architecture they are currently using if they want to make the jump to 10MJ in 2018.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

The article also confims that Toyota may have to design a new engine (mono-turbo ?) or have to find a very clever ERS-H solution that would be compatible with the twin-turbo architecture they are currently using if they want to make the jump to 10MJ in 2018.

If they keep the twin-turbo arrangement they'd probably need to route the exhausts back into a single pipe and feed that into a Porsche-style downstream ERS-H.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

There is a good read about the TS050 in the latest issue of RCE.

Seems that they had to do some compromise on the TS050 in terms of the through-flow aero concept of the car. It was originally contemplated to improve air flow in the side pods and around the engine (at that time it was still contemplated to stick with the NA V8 engine) but that the turbos and intercoolers now sit right in that path, which compromises drag. We shall see if this becomes an issue at Le Mans where aero efficiency and low drag are key.

The article also confims that Toyota may have to design a new engine (mono-turbo ?) or have to find a very clever ERS-H solution that would be compatible with the twin-turbo architecture they are currently using if they want to make the jump to 10MJ in 2018.

Based on the pace and top speed they had at the prologue with the LM package, I think they're doing a good enough job with this 'compromise'. The LM package, according to Davidson, isn't meant for anywhere but LM and wouldn't have worked even at Spa. But they were faster than last year's car with it at the Prologue even though that was the first time turning laps in it! So I'm optimistic about it and we'll hopefully see some pics of it at the test at Spa.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by TF110

Based on the pace and top speed they had at the prologue with the LM package, I think they're doing a good enough job with this 'compromise'. The LM package, according to Davidson, isn't meant for anywhere but LM and wouldn't have worked even at Spa. But they were faster than last year's car with it at the Prologue even though that was the first time turning laps in it! So I'm optimistic about it and we'll hopefully see some pics of it at the test at Spa.

Optimistic shoud be your middle name ay

[gustavobamba]

Toyota will face the problems of bringing a new car to Le Mans but one thing is sure.... if they manage to stay reliable they will have a chance to win. This year will be very open.

This new TS 050 is way better then last year car... probably still fragile but let´s see what the Le Mans aero could do!!!!

Le Mans 2016 will be a very, very nice race

[GasperG]

Wasn't Toyota the only one that showed LeMans package at Prologue? At this point we can only say that we have absolutely no idea how they will compare.

So far performance of all three manufacturers was competitive, Porsche still has the edge but not by much. LeMans will definitely be a great fight.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

There is a good read about the TS050 in the latest issue of RCE.

Seems that they had to do some compromise on the TS050 in terms of the through-flow aero concept of the car. It was originally contemplated to improve air flow in the side pods and around the engine (at that time it was still contemplated to stick with the NA V8 engine) but that the turbos and intercoolers now sit right in that path, which compromises drag. We shall see if this becomes an issue at Le Mans where aero efficiency and low drag are key.

The article also confims that Toyota may have to design a new engine (mono-turbo ?) or have to find a very clever ERS-H solution that would be compatible with the twin-turbo architecture they are currently using if they want to make the jump to 10MJ in 2018.

Yes the RCE article is good, and they managed to tease some rather candid an honest views from the TMG staff. I must say most of the theories for swapping to a forced-induction engine are about 40 years old, so they say the NA engine has a very narrow operating window......NOOOOO! REALLY??? AND ITS TAKEN YOU HOW MANY YEARS TO REALIZE THIS???.....to this day I am still gob-smacked they implemented a normally-aspirated solution.......

regarding single turbo, I think its only a matter of time before they realise the old indy-car solution is the way forward, whereby a single turbo can be packaged inside the bell-housing, nice and low, compact and out of the air-stream, Ferrari and Sauber are currently doing something similar.......personally I think Toyota will suffer at LeMans because of the twin-turbo set-up, as it will choke the flow through the side pods and not exactly reduce drag, but all that aside, it was really nice to see the Toyotas take on Porsche and Audi at Spa, they certainly now have found some pace!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by knighty

Yes the RCE article is good, and they managed to tease some rather candid an honest views from the TMG staff. I must say most of the theories for swapping to a forced-induction engine are about 40 years old, so they say the NA engine has a very narrow operating window......NOOOOO! REALLY??? AND ITS TAKEN YOU HOW MANY YEARS TO REALIZE THIS???.....to this day I am still gob-smacked they implemented a normally-aspirated solution.......

regarding single turbo, I think its only a matter of time before they realise the old indy-car solution is the way forward, whereby a single turbo can be packaged inside the bell-housing, nice and low, compact and out of the air-stream, Ferrari and Sauber are currently doing something similar.......personally I think Toyota will suffer at LeMans because of the twin-turbo set-up, as it will choke the flow through the side pods and not exactly reduce drag, but all that aside, it was really nice to see the Toyotas take on Porsche and Audi at Spa, they certainly now have found some pace!

Did you forget about the TS020 running a TT V8 in 1998 and 1999? The area in the sidepods don't look much larger than last year but you can see the intercoolers take up some real estate.

here's the new car's sidepod layout somewhat exposed


here's another image I caught from twitter


quite compact like he notes.

[Japanese Samurai]

Toyota spent more than 80 % of development resources on the LM spec aero according to the Japanese Autosport magazine.

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Toyota spent more than 80 % of development resources on the LM spec aero according to the Japanese Autosport magazine.

Not really a surprise there, toyota want to win the big one more than anything, to finally match Mazda and be able to claim the victory that has so cruelly avoided them in the past

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Toyota spent more than 80 % of development resources on the LM spec aero according to the Japanese Autosport magazine.

An amazing fact. Bodes well for them seeing that the high downforce package worked very good at Spa. If the LM-spec does as good it should be a great performer. I posted it before, but the LM package went faster than last year's car at the Prologue despite that being it's first running.

[chernaudi]

Sport Auto is reporting that there's no 30 endurance tests scheduled before LM for them to sort out the Spa engine issues.

[TF110]

But they do have a two-day test at Spa in a couple weeks http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=7805