[WTCC] WTCC 2009: News, Rumours, Entries...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I can only name Priaulx and Huff as drivers at Thompson's level, in my opinion.

Sounds more like a list of the British drivers to me than a "the only good and worthy" in WTCC.

[FIRE]

Porteiro drove for Campos in GP2 so they know each other.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by stedevil

Sounds more like a list of the British drivers to me than a "the only good and worthy" in WTCC.

There are indeed more names than just those 3. Jordi Gené, Tom Coronel, Jörg Muller and Duncan Huisman come to mind.

[helterskelter]

Hang on, I'm not british so I have no reason to support British drivers! Anyway, I actually forgot Tom Coronel, I would put him in the list. I don't agree with the other 3 Bramzel mentioned: Jordi Genè and Jorg Muller do not have the consistency it takes to be a champion. I really like Jorg, he's a great guy and a good driver, but it's unlikely that he'll win a World Championship because he tends to have some blackouts, which rarely happens with Priaulx, for instance. As for Duncan Huisman, here we're getting out of Wtcc and the discussion would be too wide. If I have to say a name, Fabrizio Giovanardi would have been a great choice for a works seat in the Wtcc. I was only 4 years old when I started supporting him, when he was driving a Peugeot 405Mi16 from Peugeot Sport Italia in 1992, when he won the championship, and I think I've seen him more than a hundred times on track with his Alfa, and I must admit I've never seen anyone drive like he did (and actually does now, in Btcc). After a couple of interviews I got to knowing him in person, and he's such a good and sweet guy: a lot of drivers don't like journalists interviewing them but he's always been nice and kind. Superb driver, fantastic man. That's the main thing to be a real champion, according to me.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Jordi Genè and Jorg Muller do not have the consistency it takes to be a champion.

But neither does Huff, and I doubt (bring out the cannons! ) Thompson would. Yes I know he has done miracles with the Alfa and the Honda, but those were also heavily compensated cars. When he was in the Seat he wasn't noticably better than his fellow Seat drivers.

[helterskelter]

I can understand this if you talk about Rob, as he's shown consistency for the first year in his career in 2008, but with James I have to say I don't agree. Thommo has been the last guy to give up on the battle for the crown in 2007, and with a very old car. Now, you can compensate in many ways, but wasn't the Lada, for instance, an old car who enjoyed several favours from the Fia so that it could be a decent competitor in the Indies?
If you tell me that his double win in Valencia was a consequence of him not having any success ballast I agree with you, but as the season went on you have to say that they did ABSOLUTELY NO TESTING that year, which made them indipendents, actually. They developed the car during the free practice on Fridays, so any advantage would have been taken away by the lack of developement of the car. When he was in the Seat, he had to face drivers who had much more experience on that car. If you look at him in the year in which he raced for Alfa, he wasn't that quick as well, but he was racing with very experienced guys. Don't forget he has beaten Yvan Muller in the same car in 2002 and in 2004 in Btcc. It's true that he didn't shine in 2005 and 2006, although in the latter he has beaten the much celebrated Jordi Genè and had the same points as the great Rydell in the same car.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I can understand this if you talk about Rob, as he's shown consistency for the first year in his career in 2008

You must be using the word consistency quite loosely. Huff had 4 double 0 weekends in 2008. Muller, who you dont even have on the list, had 0 double 0 weekends 2008. Even Farfus, that I dont think anybody considers consistent, had only 3 double 0 weekends.

but with James I have to say I don't agree.

I agree with you there. Tommo didnt have an underweight car 2008. Quite the opposite, he started out with an OVER weight car... only after almost half the season were they allowed to be as low weight as the rest of the petrol competition. The non existing development budget of course didnt help the situation. Would the team have had a proper budget, Im sure he could have been fighting for top positions in the championship.

... had the same points as the great Rydell in the same car.

Yet Rydell also doesnt make your list...

[helterskelter]

For Rydell: There is a huge difference between great and champion!
For Rob's consistency: Of course I didn't explain it well enough, if you look at his performances after the first two weekends he's much more consistent than his previous years, and far more than two good drivers such as Menu and Larini
For Yvan not being on the list: I think Seats were on another planet, so I wouldn't rate him based on this year's performances. He certainly is the closest Seat driver to the definition of champion, but if you say that BMWs were quicker and you beat your opponents because you have better teammates and you actually won against a stronger opponent, then you're not honest, and you reign will not last. To be a real champion, you also have to be ethically correct. His interview to Autosport actually entertained me, and I wrote an article about it on the website in which I answer to everything Yvan said to justify his words. Sorry, but the news is in italian.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

For Rydell: There is a huge difference between great and champion!

Yes, you talked about needing to be a great person as well. For me Rydell is a calm, nice and friendly guy that is always open and honest in interviews etc and thus qualify.

For Rob's consistency: Of course I didn't explain it well enough, if you look at his performances after the first two weekends he's much more consistent than his previous years, and far more than two good drivers such as Menu and Larini

Well, Larini IMO is just a has been. I was surprised he wasn't replaced by a new younger talent already in 2008, so Im not at all surprised about his 2008 achievements.

Menu just had heaps of bad luck, but still belongs on the "good and worth" list IMO.

For Yvan not being on the list: I think Seats were on another planet, so I wouldn't rate him based on this year's performances.

What about the previous year then? Most of that season he drove a petrol Seat, arguably not the quickest car out there, and later he dropped out of half the races developing the Diesel. Yet only a first race last lap failure robbed him of the championship crown 2007.

And do compare his performance in 2008 with eg Gene an Monteiro... he ran laps around those guys even while usually carrying 20-40kg more success ballast. They had no worse cars then him.

And should we rob Priaux of his honour, since after all most years he won the BMW was clearly the car to be in? And 2007 it was definitly down to luck he became champion.

[SEATFreak]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

For Yvan not being on the list: I think Seats were on another planet, so I wouldn't rate him based on this year's performances. He certainly is the closest Seat driver to the definition of champion, but if you say that BMWs were quicker and you beat your opponents because you have better teammates and you actually won against a stronger opponent, then you're not honest, and you reign will not last. To be a real champion, you also have to be ethically correct. His interview to Autosport actually entertained me, and I wrote an article about it on the website in which I answer to everything Yvan said to justify his words. Sorry, but the news is in italian.

I must admit that during last year, overall, none of his team-mates came close to the same performances he was able to put in judging by the constency of results; only twice was Yvan outside of the top 10 and 15 times he was in the top 5, three times he was on pole (Same number as Farfus) and as stedevil said he has no double-0 weekends. Gene had 4, Rydell and Tarquini had 3, and Monteiro had 7 double-0 weekends.

[helterskelter]

Rydell: Yes, he is a great person, he explained me how you have to drive a diesel car without making me feel like crap because I didn't know it, differently from Yvan Muller. Perhaps he could make it to the list, except that what he did in Anderstorp in 2007, although a kind of sportive miracle, makes me have doubts on him, as he passed Larini, who was fighting for the championship at the time, on the last lap and took the win away from him, makes me feel that at least at the time, when he was a wild card, didn't have the feeling that he was working for his team. He told me that the agreement was he could win, but I doubt that it meant he could pass Larini on the last lap.
Calling Larini a has been is too much, he had a difficult year, but don't forget the good 2007 season, he was in the fight for the championship. Menu is a top driver, he is a race winner, but he lacks consistency: as for the bad luck, don't tell this to a Priaulx fan (remember Andy's punctures!).
Yvan: beating Monteiro and Genè is far different from beating Farfus! Remember Pau, when Andy won with Farfus only having 3kgs ballast.
Being in the car to be in is far different from being in an unbeatable and unpassable car: the 1-6 in Puebla is something this sport had never experienced before. In the part of 2007 in which Yvan was in the TDi he didn't have the limitations the car had this year, in which it dominated, because it was new and nobody knew how quick it was. And the share of bad luck Yvan had in Macau was the same Andy had in Monza (taken out both times during the races), so I think that saying Andy won because he was lucky is very unfair to him. This year Priaulx has been taken out by Tarquini in Oschersleben, which made him lose both races and potential podiums, had a puncture in Monza when he was going for a top 5 points finish and had a puncture in Brands Hatch, so who is the lucky one?
Also, when Priaulx was 'in the car to be in', he never claimed that Seats were faster, which Yvan did, saying BMWs were quicker, and it makes absolutely no sense. Also, you talk about no 0 points weekend, but he did score 1 point in 3 races between Brands Hatch and Oschersleben, with two consecutive races without points. When his car wasn't perfect, like in Oschersleben where BMWs are traditionally the fastest car in the field, he struggled.
Anyway, guys, shouldn't we create another thread to carry on this interesting discussion?

[Icebaby]

Agree with the comments about Thompson being a great driver, quite remarkable no one's picked him up or waited on him to be released fron his N-Tech contract, still Dynamics have shown failth in him and I am sure will award him with another chance to be BTCC champion in 09 when announced IMO.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Anyway, guys, shouldn't we create another thread to carry on this interesting discussion?

Im not sure. This is WTCC 2009 related, since we are discussing WTCC 2009 drivers. Sure, we could create a new specific topic, but I assume we are not really off topic here either.

he was a wild card, didn't have the feeling that he was working for his team. He told me that the agreement was he could win, but I doubt that it meant he could pass Larini on the last lap.

Yeah, that was probably a bit short sighted, adrenaline rush induced, decision, that for sure more damaged then helped his career. OTOH people were very quick to forget that he actually did play the good teammate and dropped back in race 1 to allow Larini & Menu to get 1st & 2nd on the grid for race 2 when he clearly could have passed Larini and climbed upwards already in race 1. Also, how many top Italian drivers would not take a shot at the victory if racing on eg Monza, spured on by a massive Italian crowd, if they where clearly faster than a Swedish teammate snailling along infront of them, already for the 2nd race in a row? Today, with 2.0 2.0 hindsight, I assume he regrets this move, but I can see why it happened there and then.

Calling Larini a has been is too much, he had a difficult year, but don't forget the good 2007 season, he was in the fight for the championship.

I wasn't really impressed by Larini in 2007. AFAI remember, him being ahead of his teammates was more due to his teammates unfortunes, than Larini being clearly the best of the 3. And this year, Menu had a bad year. Larini just lacked pace, considerably, vs his teammates, throughout the entire season. That is not what I call misfortune. In best case he just lost his spark and need a good reignition. But I have my doubts sitting in a safe payed seat at Chevy will reignite that spark in 2009.

Yvan: beating Monteiro and Genè is far different from beating Farfus! Remember Pau, when Andy won with Farfus only having 3kgs ballast.

Don't get me started about Pau, and other crap tracks where passing is nigh impossible. Now, if this would have happened at eg Brno, then there would be something to brag about.

the 1-6 in Puebla

Includes the Petrol engine car... The SEAT chassis just fit perfectly to that specific track. Remember, even the Indies was won by the single Seat (also petrol) vs the fleet of BMW.

so I think that saying Andy won because he was lucky is very unfair to him.

Yes, but IMO not more unfair than to claim Muller didnt deserve the 2008 title.

This year Priaulx has been taken out by Tarquini in Oschersleben

Agreed, that was ugly.

Also, when Priaulx was 'in the car to be in', he never claimed that Seats were faster, which Yvan did, saying BMWs were quicker, and it makes absolutely no sense.

Well, it sort of did make sense. Farfus has been absolutely outstanding this year among the BMW drivers when it comes to pure pace. He just doesnt yet have the calm racing brain needed to fully take advantage of his skill. Seat marketing just made sure to have their drivers twist this angle, that 1 of the BMW in many cases has been quicker than the TDi. Though I do agree, some of the Seat drivers have pushed this a tad too far (especially Tarquini, and to some extent Muller, it got tiring to hear this repeated from as the season progressed).

[redshoes]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72801
Thompson has now been release by N.Tech. He says he's discussed racing in STCC and might consider GTs.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Thompson has now been release by N.Tech. He says he's discussed racing in STCC and might consider GTs.

Yeah, I already talked about how valuable Thompson could be for Swe Honda in the STCC thread. Him already racing 1 year in the Accord in WTCC would make a HUGE difference since STCC this year is switching to the WTCC tire...

[helterskelter]

Pau: I'm talking about pace, and the fact that in hard conditions (fully wet) Priaulx showed faster than Farfus because he's definitely a better driver than his teammates. Muller didn't deserve the 2007 title because he was in a far better car for half the season, and yet he couldn't beat Priaulx because Andy is a real champion and is capable of winning even in a slower car; anyway I do respect what tracks say, and from 2004 to 2007 it said Priaulx, this year it said Muller, we'll see what happens next year. I never said Muller didn't deserve the 2008 title, I'm saying that you have to be a fair winner, not only a fair loser.
Rydell: I agree, no italian Wtcc driver would have done that, but some other drivers would have done that. I'm thinking of Hernandez, Priaulx, Giovanardi, for instance, great drivers who know how things work in Wtcc and how much importance do this 'games' have in the championship and in touring cars in general.
Larini: it's not about misfortunes, it was about him being more consistent. Anyway, I'm not saying Larini is the best driver in the field, but I think it's too much if you call him a 'has-been' because he's still a good driver who certainly had a horrible year in 2008
The 1-6 in Puebla: Coronel is a works Seat driver and is backed by Seat Holland, so it doesn't matter if he's on a petrol powered car or on a diesel. Even if you don't consider him when counting, a 1-5 has never happened in the history of the championship anyway, not even in Oschersleben with BMW. Also, during that weekend, only one BMW scored (oops, Priaulx again!), which is terrible: the truth is that nobody could pass the Seats even if he was faster than a TDi, because they were simply too quick on the straights and when exiting corners.
Anyway Farfus was outstanding in practice and warmups mainly, and anyway because of his actual lack of results only at 2 weekends out of 12 he was heavier than Priaulx, that's why he was so fast compared to him. A 40 kgs difference really shows in the laptimes. Anyway, Tarquini and Muller already said that in Valencia, where they made it to the podium only in race 1 (Tarquini and Genè), and I'll tell you why: in race 1 they were so much faster in the straights that nobody could pass them, in race 2, where they needed to pass, they just couldn't. Also, after all the domination they had showed in the first 2 meetings, they carried more ballast than their opponents, which is why they didn't dominate. When I told this to Priaulx, Farfus, Huff they all laughed at them, because they claimed that the limitations they'd had were penalizing them and the BMWs were faster, which is absolute rubbish, and the results are there to show that! 27 points ahead of the first non-Seat, 11 wins in the season and 52 points margin in the constructors. If the diesels weren't faster then anyone who takes Monteiro, Genè, Tarquini, Muller and Rydell in their team would win, even Lada, because with a slower car they managed to win the championship with such a margin... Amazing!

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by redshoes

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72801
Thompson has now been release by N.Tech. He says he's discussed racing in STCC and might consider GTs.

So no Btcc with Halfords?

[awrb]

If Muller did win the title in 2007, I think i would have been very unfair to say he didn't deserve it because he had a better car. You're taking titles from Schumacher, Makkinen, Loeb etc. Any driver's going to try to get the best car available, to give them the best shot. At the end of the day, whoever wins the championship deserved it. Unless they maliciously hit a competitor to give them the title, they deserved it.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Pau: I'm talking about pace, and the fact that in hard conditions (fully wet) Priaulx showed faster than Farfus because he's definitely a better driver than his teammates.

So Priaulx being quicker 1 time prooves he is better, while the other guy being quicker about 10 times proves nothing? And yes, I do expect Priaulx (from UK) to be better in the wet than Farfus (from Brazil). After all, where are you most likely to get wet race practice?

Muller didn't deserve the 2007 title because he was in a far better car for half the season

Well, I cant agree on that. IMO Muller still almost managed to take the 2007 title, not because he got half a new car in the 7th out of 11 race weekends, but despite of it. Everybody knows that bringing something new and half baked will very likely NOT bring you the championship. For prime examples of what happens when you bring under developed cars to a champonship, look eg at BTCC Seat and STCC Volvo in 2008. Seaon 1 is the learning & development year, you might have the speed, but not likely the reliability over a full race.

it doesn't matter if he's on a petrol powered car or on a diesel.

Hold on, are you claiming that the Seat chassis superiority is what made Muller have an unfair advantage?!?

the truth is that nobody could pass the Seats even if he was faster than a TDi, because they were simply too quick on the straights and when exiting corners.

I repeat, even the non works, independant petrol Seat beat out every single BMW independent. Some tracks are biased re 1 chassie vs another.

[helterskelter]

Seats being quicker than BMW in Puebla: What do you mean 'every single indipendent petrol powered seat'? There is only Corthals, and d'Aste was very near him in Race 1 especially
Doesn't matter if...: No, I was talking about the 1-6 in Puebla and I meant that Coronel should be considered as well.
Muller: Yeah, 2 wins out of 2 in the new TDi, always in the points except in Macau and only 2 podiums before the TDi arrived: great season until the diesel Leon came in! You're right, during its first appearances the TDi was absolute crap, so much that Tarquini complained because he didn't get it when Muller did.
Farfus: Augusto is in touring cars since the Etcc days and has always raced in european single seaters, so how can you say Andy had more practice on the wet? Priaulx started his carreer at the age of 23, don't forget that. Also, Andy was beaten by Farfus on 8 occasions out of 24, in which you have to count the two punctures in Brands Hatch and Monza, so where are the 10 times? Andy was great in beating him even if he had more ballast than Augusto, who is definitely a quick driver! He actually IS great, which is why he won more than any other touring car driver in the history of the sport.

[helterskelter]

Originally Posted by awrb

If Muller did win the title in 2007, I think i would have been very unfair to say he didn't deserve it because he had a better car. You're taking titles from Schumacher, Makkinen, Loeb etc. Any driver's going to try to get the best car available, to give them the best shot. At the end of the day, whoever wins the championship deserved it. Unless they maliciously hit a competitor to give them the title, they deserved it.

I'm not saying he wouldn't have deserved it because you have to be respectful towards the results the track indicates: nevertheless, I have to say that I appreciate much more a driver winning a championship while being not in the best car (Priaulx 2007) than someone winning with a car like the Leon TDi, but that's a personal opinion. A championship win derives from the best package, no only the driver, but the team, the teamates and definitely the car, and in 2008 the best package proved to be Yvan Muller's. The questions about how much weight did the driver have in Priaulx's 4 titles and in Muller's crown are all personal considerations, that nobody can change because each of us sees things in his own way when you talk about drivers and people, more in general. With cars it's less of an opinion and it can be more measurable, thanks to the results the other people in the same car have had.
So, Muller is the best Seat driver and Priaulx is the best BMW driver. The rest is open to interpretations, and in my opinion Priaulx is a better driver than anyone, and I try to give you facts to support my opinion.
Even in Formula 1, Schumacher is definitely a great driver and he was intelligent enough to secure the best deal to get him in the best car and he was brave to believe in the Ferrari project. I don't like him but I have to say he was a worthy champion when he won. But it thrills me more to see Senna come second in a Toleman in Montecarlo, or Vettel winning in Monza in a Toro Rosso, to be honest...

[Bramzel]

Shall we discuss Season 2009 again?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

What do you mean 'every single indipendent petrol powered seat'?

I didnt write that, please read what I wrote again.

Muller: Yeah, 2 wins out of 2 in the new TDi, always in the points except in Macau and only 2 podiums before the TDi arrived: great season until the diesel Leon came in!

2 wins out of 2 in the new TDi? What do you mean with that? First weekend for TDi was Anderstorp, 6th in race 1 and didnt even make it across the finishline in the 2nd race. And you make a big fuss about how he was only 2 times on the podium before the TDi... guess what, he was only 2 times on the podium AFTER the TDi as well. Indeed, amazing impact on his performance...

that Tarquini complained because he didn't get it when Muller did.

I think we both agree that Tarquini always finds something to complain about.

Farfus... ...european single seaters, so how can you say Andy had more practice on the wet?

British Isles gets a lot more rain than mainland Europe. Usually not enough to stop a race, only to ensure the track is nice and slippery. That's what keeps the grass the greenest in the world.

so where are the 10 times?

Look at the fastest lap, and qualifying performance. Again, Farfus is anything but consistent in the races. Usually he gets himself in stupid situations and next to offs himself. But there is no denying that he usually is by far the fastest BMW if you just look at speed alone. If he just gets his head straight, he could easily take the crown already in 2009.

[JMeissner]

As Bramzel said, back to topic!

[helterskelter]

Yeah, like I said before, let's create a new topic. I will do that