The Current State of IndyCar

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

This was a freak accident and has no bearing on IndyCar or motorsport in general.

There's nothing to sweep under the rug.

Yes, it was a freak accident, but it was also inevitable. As long as they race on ovals, and cars break apart like they do, eventually this will happen. I mean, Hinchcliffe got hit by bodywork just last year.

And racing on big or fast ovals makes it more likely. I don't know what my point is though. I would say that they should cut out all the large ovals, but they'll still always have Indy. Ugh.

Could it be that the talent level of drivers (or the ability of the cars) aren't up to the level they need to be at to race like they do? Does anyone think we'd have seen half as many wrecks at Pocono as we did if the level of driving was at Formula 1 or even WEC level? Not that that's a fair argument either, I know, but maybe the level of driving isn't as high as we think. There's obviously 10-12 top level guys, but the other 12-16 are so much lower that maybe it's causing some of these scary situations (like Vautier wrecking Rahal).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

I'll just keep it simple: IndyCar's current casualty rate is unacceptable, particularly on ovals. The series must find solutions.

To put it in perspective, oval racing wasn't the cause of Justin Wilson's accident, it was debris from Karam's accident.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

To put it in perspective, oval racing wasn't the cause of Justin Wilson's accident, it was debris from Karam's accident.

And the odds of a driver being hit by high-energy debris is particularly high at ovals.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Yes, it was a freak accident, but it was also inevitable. As long as they race on ovals, and cars break apart like they do, eventually this will happen. I mean, Hinchcliffe got hit by bodywork just last year.

And racing on big or fast ovals makes it more likely. I don't know what my point is though. I would say that they should cut out all the large ovals, but they'll still always have Indy. Ugh.

Could it be that the talent level of drivers (or the ability of the cars) aren't up to the level they need to be at to race like they do? Does anyone think we'd have seen half as many wrecks at Pocono as we did if the level of driving was at Formula 1 or even WEC level? Not that that's a fair argument either, I know, but maybe the level of driving isn't as high as we think. There's obviously 10-12 top level guys, but the other 12-16 are so much lower that maybe it's causing some of these scary situations (like Vautier wrecking Rahal).

Why was it inevitable, because it was on an oval? Both Henry Surtees' accident in July 2009 and Massa's later that month had nothing to do with the type of circuit they were racing on.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Why was it inevitable, because it was on an oval? Both Henry Surtees' accident in July 2009 and Massa's later that month had nothing to do with the type of circuit they were racing on.

Because on ovals, there's more wrecks where cars hit walls, sending pieces flying, increasing the odds of those pieces hitting following cars and their drivers.

[D.R.T.]

Just to keep things in perspective - Hinch hitting debris in 2014 also occurred on a road course.

This is an open wheel issue - not an Indycar or Oval issue.

[Akrapovic]

I think basic statistics say there's a higher chance of it happening on an oval, but it's still an issue on road courses.

Ovals tend to have larger accidents, cars are closer together, and the smaller circuit means more cars per area. However the issue is still very real on road courses too, as a number of accidents have shown.

[DS"]

Out of curiosity: Did we have instances in CART, where another driver was hit my debris? I mean, there were sometimes very extreme accidents in CART, yet I can't recall debris flying all over the place. But the DW12 was flawed car to begin with and didn't the nose cone even had to be strengthened with metal or something like that, in order to keep the balance of the car? We have a long off-season approaching and I hope that Dallara seriously reworks their car or else IndyCar should cancel their contract and let someone else build a good race car for all tracks.
But I really hope that this isn't the end of oval racing in IndyCar. IndyCar needs oval racing and while I don't want to see an inflation of oval racing like in the early IRL days, the ovals add a little flavor into an otherwise dull schedule.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by DS"

Out of curiosity: Did we have instances in CART, where another driver was hit my debris? I mean, there were sometimes very extreme accidents in CART, yet I can't recall debris flying all over the place. But the DW12 was flawed car to begin with and didn't the nose cone even had to be strengthened with metal or something like that, in order to keep the balance of the car? We have a long off-season approaching and I hope that Dallara seriously reworks their car or else IndyCar should cancel their contract and let someone else build a good race car for all tracks.
But I really hope that this isn't the end of oval racing in IndyCar. IndyCar needs oval racing and while I don't want to see an inflation of oval racing like in the early IRL days, the ovals add a little flavor into an otherwise dull schedule.

I don't think that's a fair way of looking at it. The DW12 didn't kill Surtees, or put Massa in hospital.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think that's a fair way of looking at it. The DW12 didn't kill Surtees, or put Massa in hospital.

But I can't recall a CART driver getting hit by a flying nosecone or any other piece of debris, but maybe I'm wrong.
And yes, I admit that it's a bit unfair to blame Dallara for head injuries in racing. It should up to IndyCar to enact regulations to ensure proper head safety.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The Current State of the indy racing league?

After Justin Wilson's avoidable death, it's questionable.

When and if an investigation is done, which like always the series tries to sweep everything under the rug, it might have an interesting revelation(s), but we will see in due time.

Oh come on. We all know you hate IndyCar, but using this tragedy for your own agenda is just poor class. It was a freak accident that could have happened anywhere. Or have you already forgotten about the incidents that cracked Felipe Massa's skull at Hungaroring and claimed the life of Henry Surtees Jr. at Brands Hatch?

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

I'll just keep it simple: IndyCar's current casualty rate is unacceptable, particularly on ovals. The series must find solutions.

How is the driver's exposed head being hit by debris a problem restricted to IndyCar? Massa and Surtees weren't racing in IndyCar.

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Yes, it was a freak accident, but it was also inevitable. As long as they race on ovals, and cars break apart like they do, eventually this will happen. I mean, Hinchcliffe got hit by bodywork just last year.

While you were waiting for the "inevitable" there were more similar incidents at road courses than ovals. As others have mentioned already, Hinchcliffe's accident happened on the Indianapolis road course.

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

And the odds of a driver being hit by high-energy debris is particularly high at ovals.

And yet it's happened more often on non-ovals.

Originally Posted by DS"

But I can't recall a CART driver getting hit by a flying nosecone or any other piece of debris, but maybe I'm wrong.
And yes, I admit that it's a bit unfair to blame Dallara for head injuries in racing. It should up to IndyCar to enact regulations to ensure proper head safety.

But it's impossible to build a car that doesn't break apart during accidents. Hell, it needs to break apart lest we want to go back to the day where the car was a bloody tank and all the crash energy went straight to the driver. Keep in mind that the debris hitting the head of a driver doesn't need to be very big either to cause major damage - the spring that struck Massa at Hungaroring weighed 800 grams, fracturing his skull.

As for CART drivers getting hit; while it wasn't debris from another car, Cristiano da Matta struck a deer during testing at Road America in 2006. He hit it with the right front tire and the remains of the animal then hit him in the head. Other than that it's hard to search for historical data - especially now when the data flow is dominated by the news of Wilson.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Because on ovals, there's more wrecks where cars hit walls, sending pieces flying, increasing the odds of those pieces hitting following cars and their drivers.

I don't think that's necessarily a given. Dario Franchitti's career ending crash, showered spectators with debris and this year a woman spectator got hit by a piece of carbon fibre at St. Pete's and neither was on an oval. Outside of IndyCar, there have been numerous crashes where debris has been strewn, like Allan McNish's crash at Le Mans in 2011.

The problem is with the carbon fibre debris. A modern race car is designed to dissipate energy on impact, so that less energy is absorbed by the driver, the by product, if you will, is lots of bits of carbon fibre being scattered everywhere. This, I think is what needs to be looked at.

[RWill2073]

@rustyfan: Yes, there have been the same incidents on road courses. That doesn't mean it isn't more likely to occur on ovals though. Open wheel cars race almost exclusively on road courses. Indycar is really the only series that races on ovals. So of course the majority of incidents will happen on road courses. But for all the reasons mentioned already: walls right on them, tighter pack racing, bigger accidents when they do happen, more wrecks per race and higher speeds, it is more likely to end badly on an oval than a road course.

@bigjohnsmith: I know it can happen on road courses too. But when is the last time you were watching a race on a road course and holding your breath in anticipation of "the big one", like at Fontana? Or at pocono, when you could see that if they're going seven wide, there will eventually be a wreck.

But I agree that the carbon pieces flying off is an issue too. But I'm not sure what can be done, since that helps the driver in the wreck. But it goes back to one of my other points. Maybe its the talent of the drivers. They're making moves that require them to have the skills of the best in the world, yet they're surrounded by half the field being well below the level needed to be able to execute these moves without them ending badly. Or they're caught up in accidents because of the lesser guys (rahal with vautier). Or maybe its the car that isn't good enough?

This is just happening too much, and I don't mean a driver dying. I mean wrecks every restart at Nola, big wrecks at Fontana, more than.half the field wrecking at Pocono.... and there's more examples I'm not remembering right now.

[D.R.T.]

Hang on - when are Rahal and Vautier considered lesser drivers?

[Paradise City]

The danger is more pronounced on ovals because there's more sustained wheel to wheel action, higher sustained speeds and were debris on track has greater implications.

But the danger is still real and substantial on road courses nevertheless so the distinction is fairly academic.

The quality of the drivers isn't at play here. The majority are very capable and reflect well in comparison to any other international series today and in the past.

And mountainstar you need to stop seeing Tony George in cloud formations. When you find yourself doing that, time to erase the sport from your field of vision. This was a freak accident that could happen to a driver in any open cockpit racing car.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Hang on - when are Rahal and Vautier considered lesser drivers?

Not Rahal. Was referring to Vautier. He's surely talented and young, but just pointing out the wider disparity between talent levels that maybe causes more risky situations.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

@bigjohnsmith: I know it can happen on road courses too. But when is the last time you were watching a race on a road course and holding your breath in anticipation of "the big one", like at Fontana? Or at pocono, when you could see that if they're going seven wide, there will eventually be a wreck.

But I agree that the carbon pieces flying off is an issue too. But I'm not sure what can be done, since that helps the driver in the wreck. But it goes back to one of my other points. Maybe its the talent of the drivers. They're making moves that require them to have the skills of the best in the world, yet they're surrounded by half the field being well below the level needed to be able to execute these moves without them ending badly. Or they're caught up in accidents because of the lesser guys (rahal with vautier). Or maybe its the car that isn't good enough?

This is just happening too much, and I don't mean a driver dying. I mean wrecks every restart at Nola, big wrecks at Fontana, more than.half the field wrecking at Pocono.... and there's more examples I'm not remembering right now.

Fontana was an exception not the rule and we all know what can happen with pack racing; Las Vegas 2011, which is why the drivers were so scathing about Fontana this year.

Karam's crash at Pocono had nothing to do with pack racing, he was leading the race and the rear end of the car stepped out, something I've seen countless times and not just on ovals. It was debris from the crash, not the nature of the race that is the problem. However, like you I'm not sure what can be done, when the cars are designed to break up, so to reduce the impact on the driver.

I don't know what you mean by lesser guys; that's a little crass. Over the decades I've been following motorsport, I've seen the very best go off big time.

[D.R.T.]

I think the driver quality is at one of its higher standards in the last 20 years.

Vautier is has been successful throughout ladder series and showed well enough in his previous rookie year with Sam Schmidt

[fomoco]

These type of incidents will happen , in tin top racing, once a car rolls anything can happen, but Like a few other posts, I am not anti IRL, but the current type of car , compared to what was run some years ago, seems to have a few problems, with ,lifting, falling apart all over the track , I know they build the tub to protect the driver, but this cuŕent version seems to have a few problems.

Time to do an indepent test , just saying

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by fomoco

These type of incidents will happen , in tin top racing, once a car rolls anything can happen, but Like a few other posts, I am not anti IRL, but the current type of car , compared to what was run some years ago, seems to have a few problems, with ,lifting, falling apart all over the track , I know they build the tub to protect the driver, but this cuŕent version seems to have a few problems.

Time to do an indepent test , just saying

That the car is prone to going airborne is a major problem, no argument there, but there's no way of getting around the car breaking apart during crashes. It needs to break apart, in order to divert crash energy away from the driver.

[JacobP]

In my opinion, the 2015 season was another PR-disaster for INDYCAR and it will be another season to forget. The list of controversies and tragedies is pretty long one:

1. Fragile body kits that break away and injure spectators.
2. The new NOLA race in the rainy swamp of Louisiana which was stopped due to time limit under yellows.
3. James Hinchcliffe, injured but lucky to be alive after the Indy practice crash
4. The comments about the dangerous race in Fontana, instead of producing a safety discussion resulted in IRL announcing new fines for criticizing them.
5. Justin Wilson, dead.
6. The double-points controversy at Sonoma.

It looks like the deep crisis continues.

PS: I know that Dixon is a great driver, but a lot of people are also bored with his precise machine-like success in driving. It would have been a great story for IndyCar this year if Montoya or Rahal actually won the title. Granted, I think fans are still pumped up about them

[Burp]

You forgot the flying Chevys at indy

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by JacobP

In my opinion, the 2015 season was another PR-disaster for INDYCAR and it will be another season to forget. The list of controversies and tragedies is pretty long one:

1. Fragile body kits that break away and injure spectators.
2. The new NOLA race in the rainy swamp of Louisiana which was stopped due to time limit under yellows.
3. James Hinchcliffe, injured but lucky to be alive after the Indy practice crash
4. The comments about the dangerous race in Fontana, instead of producing a safety discussion resulted in IRL announcing new fines for criticizing them.
5. Justin Wilson, dead.
6. The double-points controversy at Sonoma.

It looks like the deep crisis continues.

PS: I know that Dixon is a great driver, but a lot of people are also bored with his precise machine-like success in driving. It would have been a great story for IndyCar this year if Montoya or Rahal actually won the title. Granted, I think fans are still pumped up about them

The deep crisis for Indycar is almost entirely backroom. Some sickly teams in a series with multi car cartels and mangled mergers and no new team turnover are the serious issues here. If they resolved this, Indycar would have good prospects. How the Carlin entry fares will be a good test as to where we are on this. Everything else is either good or problems that can be reasonably overcome.

The Wilson tragedy is bleak but it is understood to be a motorsport issue; it comes in the wake of Bianchi and the Tony Stewart incident. People understand motorsport is dangerous - like mountaineering say - and it has reignited a conversation throughout motorsport on what the next stage in cockpit safety is going to be.

It is understood not to be in the same category as that disgusting 'Vegas race which was the kind of insane madness that was purely a creature of Indycar.

Dixon winning is a double edged sword. He came from nowhere, beat aside the two obvious pretenders and unseated the year long points leader in a surprise victory. An extraordinary story -- but it was marred by Montoya's understandable reaction. But this is easily fixed if they wise up. Either scrap the double points or hold a season ending double header.

There's far more messing with these venues then there should be, particularly as some dropped venues have had good crowds! But these are more or less backroom issues and I'm glad they are experimenting with new venues even if they don't come off as long term propositions. Indycar still has a strong slate of venues to stage a successful championship.

Indycar picked up new viewers apparently in the wake of the NBC NASCAR deal and NBC, in its turn, respected Indycar by showing even clashing races live. The one advantage of Indycar's season finishing early is that it avoids any further difficult clashes.

We had a cracking 500 this year and there was a good number of races that were better than F1 and Cup. Lots of strong positives this season but they need to make running these teams affordable again and understand it's not the end of the world as we know it if the championship is resolved before the last race.

[D.R.T.]

The racing product was a strong as ever.

The tragic loss of Justin Wilson will always be how the 2015 season will be remembered and quite rightly.

I don't buy into the narrative that 2015 was a PR disaster.

The backroom struggle between the team owners and walker was a major concern.

Other positives was the rise in TV ratings and the rise of Graham Rahal and Newgarden.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JacobP

In my opinion, the 2015 season was another PR-disaster for INDYCAR and it will be another season to forget. The list of controversies and tragedies is pretty long one:

1. Fragile body kits that break away and injure spectators.
2. The new NOLA race in the rainy swamp of Louisiana which was stopped due to time limit under yellows.
3. James Hinchcliffe, injured but lucky to be alive after the Indy practice crash
4. The comments about the dangerous race in Fontana, instead of producing a safety discussion resulted in IRL announcing new fines for criticizing them.
5. Justin Wilson, dead.
6. The double-points controversy at Sonoma.

It looks like the deep crisis continues.

PS: I know that Dixon is a great driver, but a lot of people are also bored with his precise machine-like success in driving. It would have been a great story for IndyCar this year if Montoya or Rahal actually won the title. Granted, I think fans are still pumped up about them

I wouldn't say it's a PR disaster, more like a PR muddle and I put this down to Mark Miles and the problem with Miles, is he's not from a racing background.

Unfortunate as it was, there was only that woman spectator who got hit at St. Pete's. If the problem of fragile winglets had persisted throughout the season then yes but it didn't.

NOLA should never have happened and many thought holding a race there was ill advised but it went ahead, though what happened there didn't mar or detract from the rest of the season, though the fallout post race, especially with the two Andretti organisations, threatens next year's Milwaukee Mille.

PR has nothing to do with either Hinchcliffe's or Justin Wilson's accident and not wanting to make light of either but motorsport is dangerous and no amount of PR spin can change that.

The double points was clearly not thought out and I think should be applied to 500 mile races only, or as Paradise City suggests why not run a double header.

From a purely racing point of view, I thought it was a good season, with excellent racing; much better than F1. The crisis though, is the same old combination of low viewing figures, low crowd attendance but this seems to be getting a little better, availability of race venues plus there is this very long off season.