[ELMS] ELMS Discussion

[Deleted]

And tires, the last hurrah of what there is

Sorry for the spam but you know...

[Deleted]

Just one more, I've had desire for graphs toying which returns every once in a while lol

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I'm not disputing that one may still enjoy watching it, my point was more to that there's not much to talk about. In the past there were didcussions to be had

Yeah, true enough, but I'd rather enjoy watching it than talking about it.... and we should relish the opportunity to see cars racing again.

[GT6]

Agreed the elms race was a breath of fresh air in what has been a barren period of racing, and so much better than the rather sterile F1 races.

[Mike E]

The ELMS presents some interesting questions about LMP2.



From the point of view of us, the small band of sports prototype fans that follow the series, it's a mixed bag. There are plenty of cars on the grid and the racing is good. This is especially impressive in the current climate. Those are good things.
On the other hand, LMP2 is now virtually a one make series, which is disappointing. We have had a single engine supplier since the current regs were introduced and teams have inevitably gravitated towards the best chassis over the homologation cycle.



From the point of view of the teams and drivers, who cares if it's a one make series? The pros get paid, the gents get to go racing on a fairly level playing field in very fast cars, the teams can clearly charge the gents or their handful of sponsors enough to keep the wheels turning.


From the ACO/FIA persepctive, they have a grid full of cars, apparently happy customers (that's not us, by the way!) and a regional series that supports the WEC.


But how does it look to the anointed chassis constructors? If you are Oreca, it's all good. If you are Ligier, you have sold quite a few cars and continue to support the few that are still running. But you have also sold well over 100 LMP3s and have that market fairly well stitched up, although Duqueine/Norma are catching up. Dallara? I guess they have written it off and must be hoping for better in the next cycle. Riley? Just embarrassing.


The model still works because endurance racing is not a spectator sport, with the exception of the marquee events. The various series are run for the benfit of the competitors. Not to the extent of, say, the 24 Hour Series or NLS maybe, but if we never turned up to another non-LM race, no one would care. We can lament the lack of variety (and we will!) but why would the organising bodies change anything?

[helgi]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The ELMS presents some interesting questions about LMP2.

I always thought that racing and, especially, endurance, is all about machinery and men (constructors, engineers and not only drivers). There're tons of different one-make series for Porsches, Ferraris, Lamborghinis and so on. That's true, that their bosses get money from participants, not viewers. But who is going to watch these cups only?
Le Mans or Daytona were always about constructors competition. It's not so difficult to name the best cars of the past but who can remember the entire team of drivers who had won in Sebring in 1975 without any Net or book searching?
The greatest fun is to chat a way before the race about technical differences, myriads of details, strong points and weaknesses of chassis and engines on different sectors of the track. That is the racing.
Even in horse racing one of the most intriguing parts is "news" from the paddock: which horse is in good condition.
A solid portion of old magazines in winter were dedicated to the fascinating side of engineering: new cars, new hopes, new ideas. It was real life. And today? They just print histories of the past just to put holes in the news lines. They have nothing to write about. And we have nothing to cheer.

Of course, bosses of ELMS (and Le Mans, I bet) are quite happy about financial sustainability of their business, as there always will be people who want to race. But I do not care about their gains while there's no actual racing in it's classic form. It's understandable that they do not care if one or two crazy fans say this, they wouldn't care even if most of the fans will ask them to revive racing.

I think the future of racing is on the club level, where participants are not so scared as marketing managers to put new cars into a completely competitive and absolutely unrefined, advertising unsterilised and beautifully unpredictable environment. I wouldn't be surprised if new amazing inventions in car architecture will be made not in super-dooper "innovative" Le Mans but on a club level by some real mechanical enthusiasts. And I'm absolutely free of any nostalgic or pessimistic thoughts about "loosing racing icons" a la F1 or LM. I've read a book by Andrew Twort, about his 750 Formula adventure, and I value this sort of garagists much higher than the whole BoPped marketing circus of Le Mans. These kind of enthusiasts make the sport.

[Mike E]

I completely agree with all of that. Makes me think of Pikes Peak as an example of that lost freedom to innovate, or just build something in your garage and have a go.
http://ppihc.org/divisions-classes-competitors/

Club and national level hill climbing is often similar.

https://youtu.be/EbmkNiCN_YA

Sorry for the off topic wandering.

[Deleted]

It is true than even in it's heyday with big P1s and GT1s no-one outside of 50 people really cared of ELMS. And all of those 50 people were probably here, listening to Radio Le Mans and hoping Eurosport or Motors TV would show more than 30 minutes of 1000km race. There was a lots to talk about in terms of cars and technology and so on, but there weren't many of us then either. The series was always just 'something to do' around Le Mans. So looking it that way, the championship essentially having been transformed into something resembling glorified Porsche Cup doesn't really change anything in terms of how it was seen from outside, and how it is run. And it hasn't, it's chumming along year after year regardless of what they've turned it into. However, the problem is that the same competitors from ELMS and other series, running pro-am spec Orecas and GTE-AM Ferraris and Porsches are also making most of the grid at Le Mans now too. Cars that used to be more akin to the support race bill competitors are now the stars. Now, the current 'big public' watching the 24 hours may still be moderately entertained as long as they get those Indycar and ex F1 and NASCAR drivers in some of the cars, and there's something resembling OEM presence even if it's made via sticker engineering and balance of performance. But as is the case with the rest of racing world, the people who follow these things are ageing. F1 will survive as it is F1, also helped by the fact that Bernie Ecclestone is no longer in charge saying "young people don't buy Rolex watches so we don't care about em", but the rest of racing will sunk even lower to the abyss if they don't do something. And that something cannot be Oreca 07 Alpine-Aurus-Ladas with spec engines and spec tires and pro-am crews making 95% of the grid at Le Mans. NASCAR business model also belongs to the 1960's.

RE: hillclimbing. I was about to say that it's a shame Pikes Peak is "just" racing against a clock instead of other competitors, but then I remembered my favorite sports having been winter sliding for number of years now, and that too is going against the clock, only down the hill instead of upwards. You have the best gal and sled being the winner without artificial BS, it's just great fun. So I could get into it. The only actual problem with it is bad TV/streaming coverage, which I think while not as bad as 5 years ago, is still quite bad. Their youtube looks very messy too.

[gert]

According to Endurance-Info, Niko Kari has been upgraded from silver to gold after the Paul Ricard race, and thus can no longer drive the LMP3 Car.

https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/le...s-du-mardi-11/

[gert]

Originally Posted by gert

According to Endurance-Info, Niko Kari has been upgraded from silver to gold after the Paul Ricard race, and thus can no longer drive the LMP3 Car.

https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/le...s-du-mardi-11/

Apparently that news was not true, since Kari is at Spa.
However, #11 didn't turn a lap in practice 1, so maybe they are in trouble after all.


And Kari seems to be gold after all
https://www.europeanlemansseries.com...9747?year=2020


--

The round at Barcelona has been replaced by another one at Paul Ricard.
https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/el...our-un-acte-2/
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...barcelona.html

I get why Barcelona has been cancelled, but find going back to Paul Ricard a bit uninspiring.
Surely there must have been other good tracks to race on?

[S griffin]

I have heard of Kari, he seems to have been a bit stuck in the junior formulas in recent years

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by gert

I get why Barcelona has been cancelled, but find going back to Paul Ricard a bit uninspiring.
Surely there must have been other good tracks to race on?

Makes sense from a logistical point of view. Easy for ELMS/Le Mans Cup teams to get to LM 3 weeks later without international travel etc.

[gert]

I hope they solve their issues with YouTube.
The LeMans Cup stream has been cut a number of times.

"Stream Unavailable. Stream suspended for policy violations."

That happened at least 6 times now.

[Akrapovic]

I'm pretty sure it's because it's auto-checking against F1 streams. It sees a generic view of Spa and thinks it's a copyright violation against F1.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm pretty sure it's because it's auto-checking against F1 streams. It sees a generic view of Spa and thinks it's a copyright violation against F1.

I think they need to look for another streaming platform then.

This is unwatchable.

[Akrapovic]

No posts about it, but that ELMS race was most excellent. Really enjoyed that one.

Hindy and RLM back in the booth feels right. It was nice.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

No posts about it, but that ELMS race was most excellent. Really enjoyed that one.

Hindy and RLM back in the booth feels right. It was nice.

It sure was.

[Aysedasi]

Brilliant ELMS race. I hugely enjoyed it. Great commentary by Hindy and JP. After the streaming hiccups yesterday for the MLMC race, the stream was perfect for me throughout. Watched the whole 4 hours. Great finish too. It helped that my son was working for Nielsen on their #7 P3 car which finished a terrific 2nd in class. He was cleaning the screen and changing front tyres and the TV actually caught one of their stops (which made his mother's day.... ).

https://youtu.be/Inb3hH25A0Y

[gert]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Brilliant ELMS race. I hugely enjoyed it. Great commentary by Hindy and JP. After the streaming hiccups yesterday for the MLMC race, the stream was perfect for me throughout. Watched the whole 4 hours. Great finish too. It helped that my son was working for Nielsen on their #7 P3 car which finished a terrific 2nd in class. He was cleaning the screen and changing front tyres and the TV actually caught one of their stops (which made his mother's day.... ).

That's nice fo him (and her and you)

The ELMS races of the last few years have been pretty good.

Very glad the stream was working well.
To be fair, I had never had issues with it bar yesterday's MLMC race, and that was horrible at times (the stream, not the race)

[Aysedasi]

Yeah, no previous problems for me either. After the 5th or 6th 'policy violation' I switched to the FB feed which was fine.

[Tique]

The entry list of Le Castellet 240 has been published. Carlin Racing is not there. Surprising knowing that the next race should be Le Mans. Or may be a no show for them this year at Le Mans

[gert]

Originally Posted by Tique

The entry list of Le Castellet 240 has been published. Carlin Racing is not there. Surprising knowing that the next race should be Le Mans. Or may be a no show for them this year at Le Mans

That is the speculation that has been going on for a while at Endurance-Info...

[gert]

Dragonspeed will be assisted by Racing Engineering in Le Mans and the rest of the LMS campaign.
They will also run Racing Engineering's Oreca, since the car they originally campaigned is owned by Cullen.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...programme.html

[Deleted]

Had not realized before but it will be a night race this time round. Start 18.30 local, sunset 20.15

The list of previoud ELMS night races IIRC
Barcelona 2019
Paul Ricard 2013 (sort of, not full darkness)
PLM 2012 (it counts...)
Hungaroring 2010
Portimao 2010
Portimao 2009
Mil Milhas 2007

[Akrapovic]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Paul Ricard but whatever, night makes it a bit varied.

Fassbender just completely broke his Porsche in qualifying. That might not be ready for the race.