The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

You already made that statement in http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...05#post3137505

I still think that the Audi R18 e-tron quattro is equally advanced, if not more.

Not in this Race Thread I havn't mate! Isn't this a democracy? Am I hogging the posts here or something? Am I not allowed to post my praise for yet another fantastic Emphatic Victory!!!!!

WHAT!!!!!...Audi's 'E-Tron Hybrid System isn't a patch on the Toyota Denso System!!!!

Let alone beat the all-mighty Diesels with a normally asperated non Turbo Gasoline engine!

Once again...WELL DONE TMG-DENSO FANTASTIC Work...Ingenious, Technology, and in only your 'Toe-in-the water' year! Roll on a two car team in 2013.

[gwyllion]

This is my earlier comment.

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Indeed, both cars have a hybrid system. The only difference is the storage medium and the axle that is driven.

The engine of the Toyota is a prehistoric compared to the Audi's mono VTG turbo direct injection diesel engine. The weight saving done by Audi is also state-of-the-art, e.g., single piece monocoque and carbon fibre gearbox casing.

The (unraced) Peugeot 908 2012 is also extremely advanced: hybrid system, seamless gearshift, twin VTG turbo diesel, ...

[Simmi]

21 is a nice logical number of points for first place. Very solid season for Rebellion. Obviously a couple of results hurt them but, like at Le Mans, they couldn't have done much more to be honest.

I'm not really sure how much value they will attach to third/fourth in the drivers championship.

Well done to Toyota. That's the standard FIA points system and they earned that third spot.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Let alone beat the all-mighty Diesels with a normally asperated non Turbo Gasoline engine!

So Toyota have proven Audi right when they were complaining during the winter that the 2012 rules favor petrol cars

[The Badger]

Well , considering who was 1st , 2nd & 3rd , I reckon they should be well pleased with themselves .

[TF110]

Whether it's more advanced or not, the Toyota certainly is faster around the track. If they can make a reliable dedicated engine next season just imagine what they could do! To the casual viewer, both cars look like race cars. The Audi says E-tron while the Toyota says Hybrid. Which company is the pioneer of hybrid technology on the road? That would be Toyota. If that's related from race to road, I say Toyota gets a better return if they're promoting hybrid technology.

Forgive my ignorance but if were talking about being more 'technologically advanced', wouldn't it go to the system which is 'better'? While Audi may have a more technical engine which uses a turbo and diesel fuel, Toyota's hybrid system is stronger. So IMO they cancel eachother out. But I have no doubt that Toyota could make an engine just as advanced and Audi could use a hybrid system just as advanced. Hopefully 2014 shows this with the regs being more open.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I have found it interesting how Wurz is really looking on top of his game in the Toyota. Maybe he really likes the car, but when you put into perspective his speed in the 908 against the likes of Davidson and Sarrazin - it makes you wonder what those guys could extract from the car.

Certainly more to come from the line-up.

The thing is, from the beginning Wurz and Lapierre were a BIG part of the development of the car. So the car is definitely to their liking. I'm sure the other drivers had help in testing, but the main 3 were Wurz, Lapierre and Nakajima. Davidson, Buemi, Ishiura, (who didn't continue with 'back problems') and Calderelli were involved later on. Then Sarrazin was last to come onboard, but he just did the test before LeMans.

[gwyllion]

I just don't agree with his bold statement of "the most sophisticated and most technically advanced racing car".

For instance, the Lola Drayson B12/69EV is also an extremely advanced car: 4 electric motors, 850 hp, lithium nanophosphate battery, wireless charging, active aerodynamics, energy recovery from dampers, ...

[TF110]

But where does it race and is it even allowed? To me a 'racing car' is a car that's actually racing, not just a testlab vehicle. If the rules allowed, you would see Toyota and Audi make cars that're equally as advanced as anything allowed. Because, it's what all they're allowed.

[gwyllion]

The car is used as test bed for their 2013 Formula E car. Of course this is pretty

I just wanted to show that there are other advanced race cars out there and hence the TS030 is not necessarily the most sophisticated race car of all time.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

This is my earlier comment.

Nonsense..."The ONLY differance is the Storage System"!!!! Like the E-Tron could run the length of the Pit lane on Electric power like the Denso System can...and accelorate out of corners as fast as a TS030 can.

The Toyota engine is a Proper Racing Engine that Sounds and goes like a Racing Engine and it doesn't even need Turbo Charger to beat a Diesel!...Diesels are for Lorries and Tractors!

TMG's monoque is just as advanced and is made in house, not outscourced, and their wind tunnel is the best in the business...even Ferrari F1 use it!

A Gearbox...is a Gearbox!

As for the Peugoet...it's an Unproven, Unraced 'Dead Duck' !

My friend, the name of the game is winning races...and this is only the test year for the TS030.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Nonsense..."The ONLY differance is the Storage System"!!!! Like the E-Tron could run the length of the Pit lane on Electric power like the Denso System can...and accelorate out of corners as fast as a TS030 can.

The Toyota engine is a Proper Racing Engine that Sounds and goes like a Racing Engine and it doesn't even need Turbo Charger to beat a Diesel!...Diesels are for Lorries and Tractors!

TMG's monoque is just as advanced and is made in house, not outscourced, and their wind tunnel is the best in the business...even Ferrari F1 use it!

A Gearbox...is a Gearbox!

As for the Peugoet...it's an Unproven, Unraced 'Dead Duck' !

My friend, the name of the game is winning races...and this is only the test year for the TS030.

Both are great cars. Both are pushing the envelope of modern technology. Why argue about apples and oranges? There will always stats and titbits of info on both cars that you could use to keep trumping each other.

It may be a test year for Toyota (and I commend them for stepping up and doing so in a spectacular fashion) but Audi is no slouch, I fully expect them to turn the wick up to 11 next year. More importantly, Toyota need to sort out that 'Proper Racing Engine' that couldn't last past 8 hours or Le Mans will be the same story as 2012.

[Maelochs]

Considering Le Mans was the team's first race, I cannot get too upset that they didn't foresee some of the issues (which might have been crash-related.) I had heard that they will have a new motor for 2013 anyway.

My hope is that they are successful enough in 2013 to invest for a few years of the new 2014 formula. Porsche, Audi, and Toyota at the same time would be wonderful.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Nonsense..."The ONLY differance is the Storage System"!!!! Like the E-Tron could run the length of the Pit lane on Electric power like the Denso System can... and accelorate out of corners as fast as a TS030 can.

That is not what I wrote. I also pointed out the systems work on a different axle

Anyway, Audi could probably drive on electric power in the pit lane. However, the 120 km/h rule prohibits Audi from doing so. In fact, this is even a requirement in the rules for hybrid cars.

To be considered as hybrid, an LMP1 car must be able to move along the whole length of the pit lane (minimum 400 m) at 60 kph using only the electric motor or the flywheel system.
The test must be carried out for the homologation of the car in the pit lane of the "24 Heures du Mans" circuit.

As far for acceleration out of corners, you are well aware that the rules restrict Audi's ability

Originally Posted by Rennen

TMG's monoque is just as advanced and is made in house, not outscourced, and their wind tunnel is the best in the business...even Ferrari F1 use it!

So the TS030 is a sophisticated race car because it spent time in a wind tunnel? By that definition, F1 cars would be the most sophisticated race cars out there.

BTW Audi tests their cars in the Sauber wind tunnel, which is considered to be rather decent as well.

Originally Posted by Rennen

A Gearbox...is a Gearbox!

The R18 is the first endurance race car with a carbon-fiber composite casing. Some consider this a technical accomplishment.

EDIT: I move the discussion away from the Shanghai race thread.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

BTW Audi tests their cars in the Sauber wind tunnel, which is considered to be rather decent as well.
The R18 is the first endurance race car with a carbon-fiber composite casing. Some consider this a technical accomplishment.

I don't think enough has been made of Audi's gearbox, taking technology that's designed within a sprinting ethos, and applying that to endurance racing and making it work 4 times at Le Mans, is really something in my opinion.

[Japanese Samurai]

According to JBpress,
Toyota has noticed that they have not fully used up the capacity of fuel tank after the Silverstone round. They improved the fuel tank before the Brazil round.
http://jbpress.ismedia.jp/articles/-/36388

[Graham Goodwin]

Pascal vasselon told me in Brazil that they had run a VERY conservative fuel strategy at Silverstone, always leaving rsather more than a lap of fuel in the tank.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

My hope is that they are successful enough in 2013 to invest for a few years of the new 2014 formula. Porsche, Audi, and Toyota at the same time would be wonderful.

Or not successful? It has been asked many times that are they more likely to continue if they win LM next, or more likely to continue if they don't (incentive). It sucks that this is a question in the first place. Tells something about the attractiveness of the sport.

[gwyllion]

There is a rumour that Toyota Racing will enter two TS030 Hybrids in the 2013 WEC, plus a third at Le Mans. That, at least, is the hope of one of the make’s drivers we met in the paddock in China. For the moment, Toyota has scheduled two test sessions at the beginning of 2013, while Audi plans to test before the end of the current year.

source: http://lemanslive.com/Lemanslive/New...-year-in-style

[Simmi]

Not amazingly happy to see Vasselon quoted in today's Autosport as saying they are aiming for two cars in the WEC and two at Le Mans.

Everything is still clearly up for negotiation with the men holding the briefcases.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Not amazingly happy to see Vasselon quoted in today's Autosport as saying they are aiming for two cars in the WEC and two at Le Mans.

Everything is still clearly up for negotiation with the men holding the briefcases.

Maybe just not promising something he fears he can't hold?

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Not amazingly happy to see Vasselon quoted in today's Autosport as saying they are aiming for two cars in the WEC and two at Le Mans.

Everything is still clearly up for negotiation with the men holding the briefcases.

Is this their first public admission they're looking at 2 full time WEC cars? If so, good news. I know it's been speculated for quite some time. The pain of losing Peugeot is a distant memory to me now. Full marks to Toyota for what they did this year. The WEC would have been a lot less successful (and a snoozefest for the overall race wins) without their legitimate effort IMO.

[Simmi]

Wasn't an admission it was what he hoped. Still nothing confirmed yet. Sounds like the programme will be announced later this month.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Wasn't an admission it was what he hoped. Still nothing confirmed yet. Sounds like the programme will be announced later this month.

Almost forgot that December/January is the normal "present" months for sportscar fans with programs announced and the first spy shots appears.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Is this their first public admission they're looking at 2 full time WEC cars? If so, good news. I know it's been speculated for quite some time.

No, Rob Leupen interview at motorsport-total.com. He also said 3 for LM.