The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

The V12 diesels were also underrated. See here and here. That is why I used the official numbers.

[TF110]

I was speaking of 2007's LMS race at Interlagos as a talking point on if the cars were still at that level they'd be at the tail end of the F1 grid of today. The 750hp isn't from 2007 as then they were 19k rpm. That'd be the low end of a spec engine, Mercedes and Ferrari were definitely over 800hp. Qualifying times from 2007s F1 race at Brazil were 1:12.0 for Hamilton (mercedes) and 1:11.9 for Massa (ferrari). That's about 5-6 seconds faster than the Peugeot's time. Today they're on slicks and still about a second slower in qualifying. So IMO they were down by around 100hp on the F1 engines of 2007, but not 2012.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Rennen

LMP teams favour ex F1 drivers

Rubbish ..... back that up .

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Rubbish ..... back that up .

You can't really say Audi do favour them exclusively, but at the same time I don't see how your natural reaction is to say it's a 'rubbish' statement.

Just look at the amount of ex-F1 drivers that competed for Peugeot/Toyota and then try and argue that those teams haven't favoured that mould of driver.

Franck Montagny
Jacques Villenueve
Marc Gene
Ricardo Zonta
Christian Klein
Alexander Wurz
Stephane Sarrazin
Pedro Lamy
Sebastien Bourdais
Anthony Davidson

Kazuki Nakajima
Sebastien Buemi

[TF110]

Kobayashi doesn't want to leave F1 for the WEC, but if he ends up having to I think a seat in the TS030 is an option, at least autosport or whoever interviewed him posed that question- http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104554

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

You can't really say Audi do favour them exclusively, but at the same time I don't see how your natural reaction is to say it's a 'rubbish' statement.

Just look at the amount of ex-F1 drivers that competed for Peugeot/Toyota and then try and argue that those teams haven't favoured that mould of driver.

Franck Montagny
Jacques Villenueve
Marc Gene
Ricardo Zonta
Christian Klein
Alexander Wurz
Stephane Sarrazin
Pedro Lamy
Sebastien Bourdais
Anthony Davidson

Kazuki Nakajima
Sebastien Buemi

Tom K and Allan McNish is F1 drivers too. (Tom K only Test)

But am i the only one thinking that we are looking at this the wrong way?
There is no way around the fact the F1 is the primary goal for most young drivers. Therefor it's natural that huge part of the Motorsport talents in someway ends up in a F1, one way or another.
However F1 is a limited series with few available seats and huge money demand for new drivers. Therefor it's natural that some drivers manage a season or two in F1, before going to Le Mans.
If you asked a promising GP2 driver if he would like a seat in WEC, knowing that he had the chance of a F1 seat if he stuck with Single seater, he would stay where he is.

But let's spin this positively. F1 is the "upcoming class" for top LMP1 driver, in the same way as GP2 is the "upcoming class" for F1

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by CTD

Tom K and Allan McNish is F1 drivers too. (Tom K only Test)

True, but McNish was participating in Le Mans (1997-1998 with Porsche, 1999 with Toyota and 2000 with Audi) before he got his F1 seat.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Just look at the amount of ex-F1 drivers that competed for Peugeot/Toyota and then try and argue that those teams haven't favoured that mould of driver.

Franck Montagny

7 Le Mans entries (1998-2002 + 2005-2006) under his belt when Peugeot selected him. No a typical ex-F1, Le Mans rookie

Originally Posted by Simmi

Jacques Villenueve

Dropped by Peugeot after 2 years, because of disappointing results.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Ricardo Zonta

Dropped by Peugeot after 1 year, because of disappointing results.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Christian Klien

Dropped by Peugeot after 2 years, because of disappointing results.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Alexander Wurz

Le Mans 1996 winner before his F1 carreer

Originally Posted by Simmi

Stephane Sarrazin

5 Le Mans entries (2001-2003 + 2005-2006) under his belt when Peugeot selected him. It is doubtful that Peugeot selected him because of his F1 experience, which dated from 1999.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Pedro Lamy

7 Le Mans entries (1997-1999 + 2001-2002 + 2005-2006) under his belt when Peugeot selected him. It is doubtful that Peugeot selected him because of his F1 experience, which dated from 1996.

Originally Posted by Simmi

Sebastien Bourdais

5 Le Mans entries (1999-2002 + 2004) under his belt when Peugeot selected him.

So if you make a list of drivers who successfully went (almost) straight from F1 to Le Mans, you end up with a much shorter list:

• Marc Gene
• Alexander Wurz
• Anthony Davidson: 2009 with Aston Martin before Peugeot selected him.
• Kazuki Nakajima: 2011 in Super GT before Toyota selected him.
• Sebastien Buemi

[CTD]

So if M. Schumacher returned to Le Mans, he wouldn't qualify as a F1 driver going to Le Mans, as he did Le Mans before he did F1?

[Aysedasi]

Exactly!

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Jacques Villeneuve
Dropped by Peugeot after 2 years, because of disappointing results.

I'm Canadian so I feel like I have to defend Jacques here. He did win the Spa 6 Hours and finished 2nd at Le Mans (even though they were the slowest of the 3 Peugeots) in 2008.

About F1 drivers switching to Le Mans. The way I see it, Formula One isn't for everyone. There have been many talented and successful drivers in GP2, FR3.5, etc that didn't have the same success in F1. But they still want to race so they have to find an alternative, like Prototypes, GTs, DTM, Indycar, or even NASCAR. A possible reason for finding many former F1 drivers on factory entries could be due to money (it is probably the closest thing to F1 salary-wise).

[Simmi]

I do get what you're trying to say gwyllion, but prior starts at the race before joining Peugeot doesn't disprove the original point which I was trying to help support, which was that LMP teams seem to prefer ex-F1 drivers. The Peugeot/Toyota rosters were just used as examples.

Saying drivers were binned due to poor results doesn't disprove anything either, they were still called up to the team in the first instance.

[Koenigsegg]

There are also a lot of F1 drivers who did Le Mans that were not in a factory team or factory P1 team.

For example:
Jos Verstappen
Alex Yoong
Giancarlo Fisichella
Christijan Albers
Narain Karthikeyan
Jan Lammers

[CTD]

Let's not forget Jan Magnussen .

But aren't we getting off topic now

[isynge]

May well be worth a diversion into a separate topic (perhaps a sub-one of the "what do we talk about thread"?) but there's an interesting point here.

Looking back over time most front line sportscar drivers seem to have had some form of F1 pedigree (Bell, Ickx, Pescarolo), perhaps because a quality driver is a quality driver - period.

There is however now a huge bottleneck around F1, which distorts the pool a sportscar team can fish from - hence Audi's emerging front line, none of which have any F1 pedigree.

I think looking at the current F1 grid most of them would do a fine job in the current breed of sportscars, but some seem more preternaturally inclined to it - somehow I'd see a Jenson Button being a better sportscar driver than Lewis Hamilton for example - but the proof of the pudding is always in the eating.

Let's remember that Jean-Louis Schlesser's F1 time had little to positively recommend it and to define Stephan Sarrazin as having F1 experience on the back of a lone (?) appearance for Minardi shouldn't really count.

[isynge]

dp

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Simmi

You can't really say Audi do favour them exclusively, but at the same time I don't see how your natural reaction is to say it's a 'rubbish' statement.

Just look at the amount of ex-F1 drivers that competed for Peugeot/Toyota and then try and argue that those teams haven't favoured that mould of driver.

His statement was LMP1 teams prefer F1 drivers . I said rubbish , you answered your own question with your first paragraph above .

Rebellion , Strakka , JRM , Musclemilk , Dyson , Pescarolo , Audi .

To name a few ..... so the comment that teams prefer F1 drivers isnt quite right now is it ..... some works teams do , and some dont would be a better way of phrasing it .

You may argue about Brabham , but that was a long time ago , and he has made his name in sportscars to be honest , and not in a Simtek .

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by CTD

Tom K and Allan McNish is F1 drivers too. (Tom K only Test)

Oh , so Duncan Dayton must be a F1 driver too then on that note , as he did a lot of historic races in one ..... lots more than TK did testing .

[CTD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Oh , so Duncan Dayton must be a F1 driver too then on that note , as he did a lot of historic races in one ..... lots more than TK did testing .

Tom K did all tire testing for Michelin before they joined the F1 pack.
I can't remember how many km he did, but it was at least half a season worth of testing.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Salamus

About F1 drivers switching to Le Mans. The way I see it, Formula One isn't for everyone. There have been many talented and successful drivers in GP2, FR3.5, etc that didn't have the same success in F1. But they still want to race so they have to find an alternative, like Prototypes, GTs, DTM, Indycar, or even NASCAR. A possible reason for finding many former F1 drivers on factory entries could be due to money (it is probably the closest thing to F1 salary-wise).

Being closest thing can also mean being still very far in actual numbers. But they get paid something.

Closest thing in all motorsports salary-wise must be Nascar (if not directly, then by the endorsement deals).

* http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21175.html

[Beetle]

I can see a Montagny/Lamy/Bourdais combination if Lamy leaves Larbre and Fernando Rees replaces him, Bourdais leaves Pescarolo (which is pretty much dead in the water), and Montagny leaves OAK for Toyota.

[GTfour]

Back on topic: I heard the commentators at Shang Hai's race speak of 'over 300 bhp' from the Hybrid system. How's that? They were still running by the ACO rules weren't they? 300bhp is more then 500kJ isn't it?

So 300+550 makes for a hefty 850bhp then !

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Beetle

I can see a Montagny/Lamy/Bourdais combination if Lamy leaves Larbre and Fernando Rees replaces him, Bourdais leaves Pescarolo (which is pretty much dead in the water), and Montagny leaves OAK for Toyota.

Bourdais? Highly unlikely, full-season Indycar deal for 2013. And somehow Indycar calendars always manage to clash with Le Mans.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Back on topic: I heard the commentators at Shang Hai's race speak of 'over 300 bhp' from the Hybrid system. How's that? They were still running by the ACO rules weren't they? 300bhp is more then 500kJ isn't it?

So 300+550 makes for a hefty 850bhp then !

Toyota said the same thing after their win in Brazil here- http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/qu...in/?myvar=News

Hisatake Murata, Hybrid Project Leader: “The project to develop a hybrid system for motorsport started back in 2006; at the time it seemed like an almost impossible task. But thanks to the dedication of my colleagues at Motor Sport Division, TOYOTA Motor Corporation’s Hybrid Department, TOYOTA Motorsport GmbH and ORECA, we have turned this dream into a reality. Today the system performed flawlessly and it was very clear how the 300hp of boost made a real difference to our lap times. The hydraulic braking and energy recovery worked in perfect harmony so I am very proud of what we have achieved. To win against tough, experienced opposition like Audi with such an advanced technology is a great credit to everyone involved.”

[Flo aus N]

Originally Posted by GTfour

Back on topic: I heard the commentators at Shang Hai's race speak of 'over 300 bhp' from the Hybrid system. How's that? They were still running by the ACO rules weren't they? 300bhp is more then 500kJ isn't it?

So 300+550 makes for a hefty 850bhp then !

Don't mix Energy [J] with Performance [J/s] !

If you have 300 hbp, thats 230 kW. 500KJ/230kW = 2,2 sec of using 300 bhp.
You can build a Hybrid-System with a maximum performance output of 500 kW, that will last only 1 second. So the amount of performance does not affect the energy you store in your flywheel oder supercapacitor!

[vincegail]

500 kJ released in different times gives different amounts of horsepower (1 kJ/s = 1 kW = 1,36 hp):
500 kJ/1s = 500 kW = 680 hp (bhp is slightly less, but I'll stick to hp) during 1 second
500 kJ/2s = 250 kW = 340 hp during 2 seconds
500 kJ/3s = 167 kW = 227 hp during 3 seconds
500 kJ/4s = 125 kW = 170 hp during 4 seconds
500 kJ/5s = 100 kW = 136 hp during 5 seconds
etc.