WEC BoP. Brilliant or Pants. - Page 18

Gerard C · 8 Jul 2023, 19:06 (Ref:4167239)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

How do you arrive at that opinion?

Vous pouvez répéter la question s'il vous plaît?

tomcug · 8 Jul 2023, 19:31 (Ref:4167245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

I have impression they only want ACO Hypercars to win and not IMSA Hypercars.

I wouldn't say so. Above all, the 963 Porsche is an average car at best. Secondly, for rivals they got Toyota who are a prototype racing veteran and Ferrari who built a beast car. The 963 was even more off the pace today at Mosport. Next year with more data available from actual racing the BOP will bring everyone closer for sure.

rika · 8 Jul 2023, 22:06 (Ref:4167268)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Vous pouvez répéter la question s'il vous plaît?

Moi, ou lui?

La question était la mienne. Si vous voulez je peux la répéter.

En Français? Ou en Englais? Ou en Allemand, le Néerlandais? C'est comme vous préférez...
Ou en Japonnais peut-être?

rika · 8 Jul 2023, 22:11 (Ref:4167270)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcug

Above all, the 963 Porsche is an average car at best. Secondly, for rivals they got Toyota who are a prototype racing veteran and Ferrari who built a beast car.

Is not only about Porsche but Cadillac too.

They also have not finished 1 single practice session of qualifying or race on top.
So it is both IMSA car that have no chance against ACO cars I feel.

And is not just rules specified they make sure everyons same chance at winning? Even if car average.

If so, would expect wins would be more spread out.

And surely each taking turn in leading practice sometimes.

But that never happened!

And I see no change in next races so think this is a really disappointing season, I expected equal fight and got not that!

But that just this girl opinion. You guys may find otherwise, no problem.

**skycafe** · 8 Jul 2023, 23:15 (Ref:4167271)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

Moi, ou lui?

La question était la mienne. Si vous voulez je peux la répéter.

En Français? Ou en Englais? Ou en Allemand, le Néerlandais? C'est comme vous préférez...
Ou en Japonnais peut-être?

Lets go with English as the language of choice.

**joeb** · 9 Jul 2023, 00:19 (Ref:4167278)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

Is not only about Porsche but Cadillac too.

They also have not finished 1 single practice session of qualifying or race on top.
So it is both IMSA car that have no chance against ACO cars I feel.

And is not just rules specified they make sure everyons same chance at winning? Even if car average.

If so, would expect wins would be more spread out.

And surely each taking turn in leading practice sometimes.

But that never happened!

And I see no change in next races so think this is a really disappointing season, I expected equal fight and got not that!

But that just this girl opinion. You guys may find otherwise, no problem.

I would point out that Caddy finished on the podium at Le Mans. Can't be that bad?

**Adam43** · 9 Jul 2023, 03:32 (Ref:4167283)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

Is If so, would expect wins would be more spread out.

Nope. That’s not how it works!

Firstly, there haven’t been that many races and secondly the whole point is we still preserve the ability to do a better job. Thirdly, lap times are vary by less than 1%.

You ain’t going to get it any better than this! No?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

…no?

Gerard C · 9 Jul 2023, 05:02 (Ref:4167287)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

And is not just rules specified they make sure everyons same chance at winning? Even if car average.If so, would expect wins would be more spread out.

As its the case for any race almost any car/team can win. That's what the BoP is meant for. As to spread out the wins if you mean a random choice like for a lottery this is purely theorical. First you have the human factor second… its not a lottery. All the difference between practical and theorical.
In car racing at least as Adam told you it doesn't work like that. Even in the same team, having a look to the results will give you an idea wether you're looking at Hamilton/Russell or Fangio/Farina (does it work with Senna/Prost?).

**Aysedasi** · 9 Jul 2023, 09:29 (Ref:4167319)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

If so, would expect wins would be more spread out.

And surely each taking turn in leading practice sometimes.

This isn't a nice 'modern' schoolyard game where the wins and fastest times have to be shared out. You make a good car (e.g. Toyota, Ferrari) you're going to win. If you make a car which clearly isn't quite as good (e.g. Porsche, Cadillac) you're not going to win (so often). No one is clamouring for Glickenhaus and Vanwall to win......

rika · 9 Jul 2023, 09:47 (Ref:4167328)

Maybe but I not convinced.

I hear say yes but make mistakes in race or team not much experience.
I see that not helping but then would still think 1 of the IMSA cars could at least have 1 practice session won?
Because then bad strategy or mistake in race does not count and even that does not happen.

If write down

Sebring
race podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
grid podium: Fer - Toy - Toy
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p2 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p3 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer

Portimao
race podium: Toy - Fer - Por
grid podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p2 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p3 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy

Spa
race podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
grid podium: Toy - Fer - Fer
p1 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p2 podium: Fer - Fer - Cad
p3 podium: Toy - Cad - LMP2

Le Mans
race podium: Fer - Toy - Cad
grid podium: Fer - Fer - Toy
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Cad
p2 podium: Por - Fer - Por
p3 podium: Fer - Fer - Toy
p4 podium: Fer - Gli - Por

Monza
grid podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p1 podium: Fer - Por - Por
p2 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p3 podium: Peu - Fer - Peu

That is
for race wins: 4 out of 4 for ACO
for race top2: 8 out of 8 for ACO
for race podium: 10 out of 12 for ACO

for grid pole: 5 out of 5 for ACO
for grid top2: 10 out of 10 for ACO
for grid podium: 15 out of 15 for ACO

for practice win: 15 out of 16 for ACO
for practice top2 : 29 out of 32 for ACO
for practice top3: 39 out of 48 for ACO

So you see only 3rd podium place available for IMSA car and even then only 2 times.
Grid? No chance!
Practice, bit better but only 8 from 48 for IMSA as 1 was LMP2.

Not looking good for IMSA car chances I think.

And you see not only race but qualify even worse!

rika · 9 Jul 2023, 09:48 (Ref:4167330)

Quote:

Originally Posted by skycafe

Lets go with English as the language of choice.

OK, no problem.

Was joke because someone put a reply in French.

v8supes · 9 Jul 2023, 09:53 (Ref:4167331)

How do Porsche and others improve their cars though? I thought that they are locked in homologation until a certain date?

Do you think any other customer cars will come? Porsche seem to be the only ones that are willing to sell them.

**Aysedasi** · 9 Jul 2023, 10:07 (Ref:4167333)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

Maybe but I not convinced.

I hear say yes but make mistakes in race or team not much experience.
I see that not helping but then would still think 1 of the IMSA cars could at least have 1 practice session won?
Because then bad strategy or mistake in race does not count and even that does not happen.

If write down

Sebring
race podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
grid podium: Fer - Toy - Toy
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p2 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p3 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer

Portimao
race podium: Toy - Fer - Por
grid podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p2 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p3 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy

Spa
race podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
grid podium: Toy - Fer - Fer
p1 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p2 podium: Fer - Fer - Cad
p3 podium: Toy - Cad - LMP2

Le Mans
race podium: Fer - Toy - Cad
grid podium: Fer - Fer - Toy
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Cad
p2 podium: Por - Fer - Por
p3 podium: Fer - Fer - Toy
p4 podium: Fer - Gli - Por

Monza
grid podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p1 podium: Fer - Por - Por
p2 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p3 podium: Peu - Fer - Peu

That is
for race wins: 4 out of 4 for ACO
for race top2: 8 out of 8 for ACO
for race podium: 10 out of 12 for ACO

for grid pole: 5 out of 5 for ACO
for grid top2: 10 out of 10 for ACO
for grid podium: 15 out of 15 for ACO

for practice win: 15 out of 16 for ACO
for practice top2 : 29 out of 32 for ACO
for practice top3: 39 out of 48 for ACO

So you see only 3rd podium place available for IMSA car and even then only 2 times.
Grid? No chance!
Practice, bit better but only 8 from 48 for IMSA as 1 was LMP2.

Not looking good for IMSA car chances I think.

And you see not only race but qualify even worse!

Yep. As we say over here, 'That's the way the cookie crumbles'. I think you're inventing a conspiracy theory! The simple fact is that they have to do better.

rika · 9 Jul 2023, 10:14 (Ref:4167334)

No I say not conspiracy, I just say they no chance at wins.
That's not same.

But as season start they say: look many manufacturers, many good teams, will be great season with great fights and eveybody can win.
[ OK, they mean probably not Glickenhaus of Vanwall but certainly mean Porsche and Peugeot and Cadillac. ]

Then I say now: no that is not true.
So that reason I diappointed with season and define this: not great.

Is like F1 where Verstappen wins all the times. That is not fun and not great.
But in F1 at season start they do not say everybody can win. For WEC and IMSA they did.
And happens otherwise.

Do F1 as expected sadly, WEC worse as had great expectations and full of promise but did not come true.

See what I mean?

**Aysedasi** · 9 Jul 2023, 10:19 (Ref:4167336)

What you effectively want is for the BoP to completely level the playing field. It's a bit like putting all the current F1 drivers in Red Bulls..... I get what you're saying but I just don't agree that that the IMSA cars are being discriminated against. No playing field is ever going to be completely level....

Gerard C · 9 Jul 2023, 10:41 (Ref:4167340)

I think you're both right but don't talk exactly about the same thing. Can an IMSA car be faster than an ACO/FIA one? Race circumstances apart (Caddie at LM), certainly not and there's a good reason to this, its because they don't comply with the same regulation. If you go with LMH and LMDh you'll clearly see what I mean (and in good English). I see your disapointment rika, I had the same. https://www.autosport.com/le-mans/ne...ours/10480111/ But because the instances want to level the field category by category it becomes understandable that for instance an LMP2 cant fight for the overall classification. IMO.

Gerard C · 9 Jul 2023, 10:48 (Ref:4167349)

There you go Bentley (thanks and sorry). Can an IMSA car be faster than an ACO/FIA one? Race circumstances apart (Caddie at LM), certainly not and there's a good reason to this, its because they don't comply with the same regulation. If you go with LMH and LMDh you'll clearly see what I mean (and in good English). I see your disapointment rika, I had the same. https://www.autosport.com/le-mans/ne...ours/10480111/ But because the instances want to level the field category by category it becomes understandable that for instance an LMP2 cant fight for the overall classification. IMO.

**Adam43** · 10 Jul 2023, 00:25 (Ref:4167666)

I normally just show the tables of Weight, Power, Energy, AWD speed, pit stop penalty. Here is a chart that combines two of these to give the good old Power to Weight.

Each data point is a change made by the ACO, hence why some events can have several in the lead up and other events are missing.

Empty points are non-hybrid and dotted lines are either grandfathered (little dots) or LMDh (broken lines) FWIW.

Power to weight is not the be all and end all for lap time, but I thought it was interesting to see the changes as they often happen together.

**Bentley03** · 10 Jul 2023, 05:27 (Ref:4167679)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

I normally just show the tables of Weight, Power, Energy, AWD speed, pit stop penalty. Here is a chart that combines two of these to give the good old Power to Weight.

Each data point is a change made by the ACO, hence why some events can have several in the lead up and other events are missing.

Empty points are non-hybrid and dotted lines are either grandfathered (little dots) or LMDh (broken lines) FWIW.

Power to weight is not the be all and end all for lap time, but I thought it was interesting to see the changes as they often happen together.

Thanks Adam, data king!

Very revealing, isn't it, and the effects of the adjustments mirror closely what we're seeing on track. Peugeot pace and Toyota/Ferrari balance of power in particular.

Gerard C · 10 Jul 2023, 07:35 (Ref:4167690)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Thanks Adam, data king! Very revealing, isn't it, and the effects of the adjustments mirror closely what we're seeing on track. Peugeot pace and Toyota/Ferrari balance of power in particular.

I'll second that, thanks again Adam impressive job again.

Not about BoP by category but "BoP" between the three categories, I find that a good balance has been found between Hypercars, LMP2's and GT's we have three battle fields for the same price. And if, sometimes, two or three LMP2's are not easy to overtake for a Hypercar that's endurance after all. This in not an excuse to send an Aston out of the track, wrecking the car and all the team work tho but this belongs to endurance hazards.

RL17 · 10 Jul 2023, 07:50 (Ref:4167693)

I also think the BOP is skewed in favour of Hypercars verses LMDh and that they should have adjusted the BOP on a platform level.

Until now Peugeot has not shown dry performance but their design has its advantages. Think Glickenhaus and Vanwall performance has also muddied the overall picture.

Toyota no 7 wasn’t really pushed yesterday - pretty low top speeds and ran virtually all race with a left front dive plane missing.

So full race in dry Hypercars have a big tyre advantage and Toyota especially

IMSA race a couple of weeks ago - all 4 LMDh very close in green flag racing for long periods - majority of components pretty standardised

tomcug · 10 Jul 2023, 09:11 (Ref:4167714)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RL17

I also think the BOP is skewed in favour of Hypercars verses LMDh and that they should have adjusted the BOP on a platform level.

Maybe... but I think we'll have to wait until next year to see the full picture. Porsche is an average car run by an average team and Caddy doesn't have much chance with Richard Westbrook behind the wheel. No disrespect to him but I don't think anyone would disagree he's past his prime since many years.

**Adam43** · 10 Jul 2023, 12:57 (Ref:4167735)

Here is some context. https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...6&postcount=64

The race pace of these cars are within 1.5% of each other (ignoring the Vanwall).
The three big factory Hyoecars are within 0.5%
The fastest LMDh is within 0.5% of the fastest Hypercar
The range across GTP is 1%. So there is more variation across this more spec. Ruleset than between Hypercar and LMDh.
We’ve never had it this close before!
It is the first main year and teams are still finding stuff out as are the BoPpers.

Not that the rules are specifically trying to align lap times. Although if everyone does the same good job it will.

veeten · 10 Jul 2023, 13:06 (Ref:4167736)

Well, one has to remember that one specific difference between LMH and LMDh: the hybrid drive systems.
LMH uses a split 4wd, where the front wheels are powered by a gradual assist EM, and the rear wheels are powered by a manufacturer-based ICE powertrain.
LMDh has a rear wheel only ICE drive with electric hybrid assist, similar to what is presently utilized in F1, and soon to be in Indycar.
And, then, you have non- hybrid entries like Glickenhaus and Vanwall. Both of which have engines built by racing concerns, not auto manufacturers.

One also has to consider how that power gets to the track, or literally, the rubber meets the road. Peugeot is the only one that has a tire size/track that is equal front and back. Everyone else has a unequal size/track. This, along with how the hybrid system kicks in to assist the ICE drive, makes a substantial difference between the two versions of LMH, as we have seen this season.

broadrun96 · 10 Jul 2023, 13:19 (Ref:4167738)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rika

Maybe but I not convinced.

I hear say yes but make mistakes in race or team not much experience.
I see that not helping but then would still think 1 of the IMSA cars could at least have 1 practice session won?
Because then bad strategy or mistake in race does not count and even that does not happen.

If write down

Sebring
race podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
grid podium: Fer - Toy - Toy
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p2 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p3 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer

Portimao
race podium: Toy - Fer - Por
grid podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p2 podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
p3 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy

Spa
race podium: Toy - Toy - Fer
grid podium: Toy - Fer - Fer
p1 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p2 podium: Fer - Fer - Cad
p3 podium: Toy - Cad - LMP2

Le Mans
race podium: Fer - Toy - Cad
grid podium: Fer - Fer - Toy
p1 podium: Toy - Toy - Cad
p2 podium: Por - Fer - Por
p3 podium: Fer - Fer - Toy
p4 podium: Fer - Gli - Por

Monza
grid podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p1 podium: Fer - Por - Por
p2 podium: Toy - Fer - Toy
p3 podium: Peu - Fer - Peu

That is
for race wins: 4 out of 4 for ACO
for race top2: 8 out of 8 for ACO
for race podium: 10 out of 12 for ACO

for grid pole: 5 out of 5 for ACO
for grid top2: 10 out of 10 for ACO
for grid podium: 15 out of 15 for ACO

for practice win: 15 out of 16 for ACO
for practice top2 : 29 out of 32 for ACO
for practice top3: 39 out of 48 for ACO

So you see only 3rd podium place available for IMSA car and even then only 2 times.
Grid? No chance!
Practice, bit better but only 8 from 48 for IMSA as 1 was LMP2.

Not looking good for IMSA car chances I think.

And you see not only race but qualify even worse!

All of that above shows a basic misunderstanding of everything about how practice goes. Not every team is out to be on the top of the charts, there are multiple strategies and pacing activities going on and a dead sprint to be the fastest is rarely on that list, learning about your car is

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