Unfulfilled talents - those who never achieved potential?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Anthony Davidson now that he's decided to retire.

[AnonymityRules]

Gil De Ferran, he got as far as being in the frame for drives at Simtek and Forti in 1994 and 1995.

Marc Gene's brother Jordi was one of the intended drivers for the stillborn 1993 Bravo F1 effort.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

Anthony Davidson now that he's decided to retire.

Is he considered an unfulfilled talent though?
IMO, his record in lower formulae suggests that his F1 record is reflective of his talent.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by AnonymityRules

Gil De Ferran, he got as far as being in the frame for drives at Simtek and Forti in 1994 and 1995.

Marc Gene's brother Jordi was one of the intended drivers for the stillborn 1993 Bravo F1 effort.

Yep both have been mentioned before....

[AnonymityRules]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yep both have been mentioned before....

I'm still relatively new.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

What about Gianfranco Brancatelli?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is he considered an unfulfilled talent though?
IMO, his record in lower formulae suggests that his F1 record is reflective of his talent.

You are joking right? His junior record which includes winning the Formula Ford Festival and runner up in British F3 suggests he deserved more than he did.

For me and many others Ant is a wasted talent. As well as being quick, he was very intelligent, as his role as a pundit no doubt shows. He never really got the breaks in F1, but moments like Canada in 2007 when he got as high as third before hitting a groundhog and his lap in Turkey in 2007 show what could have been. It's a travesty he never even got a point in F1

[AnonymityRules]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You are joking right? His junior record which includes winning the Formula Ford Festival and runner up in British F3 suggests he deserved more than he did.

For me and many others Ant is a wasted talent. As well as being quick, he was very intelligent, as his role as a pundit no doubt shows. He never really got the breaks in F1, but moments like Canada in 2007 when he got as high as third before hitting a groundhog and his lap in Turkey in 2007 show what could have been. It's a travesty he never even got a point in F1

I'm glad someone agrees with me. It's getting harder and harder to name any drivers that could be considered "unfulfilled talents" when there's always at least one user who will insist on questioning them and just plain being pedantic.

[crmalcolm]

So not joking about why (in my opinion) Davidson is not an unfulfilled talent.

If having an opinion on that and providing a reason is wrong, I guess I wonder what is being achieved by putting the names forward in a chat forum anyway?

So why do I think this about Davidson:
Wining a Formula Ford Festival? It's a one-off meeting, and not really the same as being able to put together a season campaign. If I go back to the OP 'never achieved the greatness that they looked destined to in lower formulae' - I wouldn't consider a single race meeting performance as a sign of being destined for greatness.
Since his win - have any other winners of the Formula Ford Festival gone on to achieve greatness in F1 that we can benchmark against?

Runner-up in British Formula 3? To start with, being runner up in a series is (IMO) not really a sign of greatness. He came second to Sato in that season, and when you compare their time as teammates in F1, then there is clear indication that Davidson's results were about on par with what his junior formulae record suggested.


As I say - it is my opinion and happy to hear justification from others on why they think he is an unfulfilled talent.
Do I think he is a very talented driver? Yes.
Do I think he is a good analyst? Yes.
Do I think his record in lower formulae suggests that greatness was in his future? Absolutely not.

And I (personally) think that the subsequent records of - van der Merwe, Heylen, Foster, Clarke, Tappy, Tandy, Boyd, Palmer, Lind, Malvern, Buri, Courtney, Green, Carroll, Kimball, Jarvis, Engel, Turvey, Grubmüller and Calado - back up my position.

I'd welcome a challenge on why a FF Festival win and British F3 runner up record is a sign of greatness?

[S griffin]

Maybe reread the thread title. It’s for people who never achieved their potential, not necessarily greatness. So therefore I think Davidson fits here fine. As I said, it’s a travesty he never scored a point in F1

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe reread the thread title. It’s for people who never achieved their potential, not necessarily greatness. So therefore I think Davidson fits here fine. As I said, it’s a travesty he never scored a point in F1

- my mistake for reading the OP in relation to the thread title.

It's ok to disagree on things you know, without taking it as an attack.

[AnonymityRules]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So not joking about why (in my opinion) Davidson is not an unfulfilled talent.

If having an opinion on that and providing a reason is wrong, I guess I wonder what is being achieved by putting the names forward in a chat forum anyway?

So why do I think this about Davidson:
Wining a Formula Ford Festival? It's a one-off meeting, and not really the same as being able to put together a season campaign. If I go back to the OP 'never achieved the greatness that they looked destined to in lower formulae' - I wouldn't consider a single race meeting performance as a sign of being destined for greatness.
Since his win - have any other winners of the Formula Ford Festival gone on to achieve greatness in F1 that we can benchmark against?

Runner-up in British Formula 3? To start with, being runner up in a series is (IMO) not really a sign of greatness. He came second to Sato in that season, and when you compare their time as teammates in F1, then there is clear indication that Davidson's results were about on par with what his junior formulae record suggested.


As I say - it is my opinion and happy to hear justification from others on why they think he is an unfulfilled talent.
Do I think he is a very talented driver? Yes.
Do I think he is a good analyst? Yes.
Do I think his record in lower formulae suggests that greatness was in his future? Absolutely not.

And I (personally) think that the subsequent records of - van der Merwe, Heylen, Foster, Clarke, Tappy, Tandy, Boyd, Palmer, Lind, Malvern, Buri, Courtney, Green, Carroll, Kimball, Jarvis, Engel, Turvey, Grubmüller and Calado - back up my position.

I'd welcome a challenge on why a FF Festival win and British F3 runner up record is a sign of greatness?

That's just going to leave other users wondering what exactly constitutes an "unfulfilled talent" and what doesn't as far as you're concerned and quite frankly I personally have had enough of you pouring cold water on every driver I mention. I don't care what you perceive it as because the cold-water treatment is how I perceive and I am sick to the teeth of it.

You can defend yourself and this thread to the hilt but that won't change my stance that this thread is just to bash racing drivers for not reaching F1 or being talented enough to be destined for "greatness". I mean how is Adam Carroll on your list? Oh wait, I know because there's users like you who insist on being pedantic and underlying every conceivable reason to the point of every I dotted and every T crossed as to why drivers like Adam Carroll are in the list, even though he won the A1GP title for Team Ireland. Was the series that bad in its last season that Carroll's success was completely devalued? Honestly, I don't care how you respond to this because I am really not interested, I think you're just being really unfair, even F1/GP Rejects isn't that hard on the so-called heroic failures of F1 that they're supposed to be paying tribute to. I won't say anymore because I'll just start rambling and I don't want to do that.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by AnonymityRules

I personally have had enough of you pouring cold water on every driver I mention.

Wow - now that seems like an over-reaction I wasn't expecting.

The thread was first started 18 years ago and had a resurrection this year.
Looking back I see that since you began contributing to the thread, you have mentioned 8 drivers that I agreed with, 2 I made no comment on and none (that I can recall) that I 'poured cold water on'.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=421
https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=423

Which drivers did you mention that I objected to?

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Wow - now that seems like an over-reaction I wasn't expecting.

The thread was first started 18 years ago and had a resurrection this year.
Looking back I see that since you began contributing to the thread, you have mentioned 8 drivers that I agreed with, 2 I made no comment on and none (that I can recall) that I 'poured cold water on'.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=421
https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=423

Which drivers did you mention that I objected to?

I agree with AnonymityRules so don't bother saying the same things to me.

[S griffin]

Please can we get back on topic? We’ve all made our point

[Nononsensecapeesh]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Please can we get back on topic? We’ve all made our point

Sorry S Griffin, Adam Carroll had at least been tipped for greatness, never really had the funds to back him up though.

[S griffin]

He was heavily linked with Lola’s 2010 F1 project, which never happened despite them building a car

Certainly he was quick and wasn’t one to cruise and collect, if his A1GP drives were anything to go by

[AnonymityRules]

Originally Posted by S griffin

He was heavily linked with Lola’s 2010 F1 project, which never happened despite them building a car

Certainly he was quick and wasn’t one to cruise and collect, if his A1GP drives were anything to go by

Exactly, he single-handedly won the title for Ireland.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Please can we get back on topic? We’ve all made our point

This feels like a handy moment to remind ourselves of the FAQs, particularly Posting Guidelines :

These include the following:
'Attack the post, not the poster!' and 'Try not to take things personally
Don't be offended too easily!
If someone disagrees with your opinion, that doesn't mean that you should take it personally.

So they don't like Driver X, so what? So they hold a poor opinion of your country, so what? Feel free to put them straight - this is a discussion forum, after all - but always keep the rest of the posting guidelines in consideration when replying.'


S Griffin and I have disagreed on (many) things, and we seem to view things from a (very) different perspective. At times, I'm sure we both have taken things a bit far. But I'd like to think we've reached a position where we both take the time to consider the point(s) being put across by the other, and engage in discussion over the merits of our respective views (sometimes strongly).
I'd never suggest that he is unwelcome to make those points - or that he should stop countering the points I make.


I also feel that misrepresentation of what has been said is also unhelpful. It may not be perceived as such - but how many posts have I disagreed with drivers presented in this thread -
One - Anthony Davidson. S Griffin has made his case for inclusion, I have outlined why I disagree.
I also agreed with the case for inclusion of another eight drivers.

I also queried whether Ken Richardson was worthy of inclusion, based on the criteria some where putting forward?

So please - if I am going to be accused of disagreeing with every driver mentioned, at least make sure that I have done what I am being accused of?



Anyway - back to the topic.
Alessando Nannini. Actually was denied a superlicence in 1985, before going on to win a race later in his career. In 1989 he won the Japanese Grand Prix (albeit only after Senna was dubiously disqualified) and the following season looked a real contender before his arm was severed in a helicopter accident.

[AnonymityRules]

Some people are clearly harder to get through to than others.

Anyway, for all the success José Maria Lopez has had with Citroen in the WTCC and Toyota in the WEC, kind of makes you wonder where did he go wrong in single seaters. His F3000/GP2 performance and the failure of USF1 obviously.

[S griffin]

After winning the Renault V6 title, Lopez never seemed to get the results in F3000/GP2, but his talent was definitely there. He certainly deserved a chance in F1 and I think it’s a shame he got so close, only for USF1 to pull out. Thankfully it hasn’t done his career in tin tops/sportscars any harm

[AnonymityRules]

Originally Posted by S griffin

After winning the Renault V6 title, Lopez never seemed to get the results in F3000/GP2, but his talent was definitely there. He certainly deserved a chance in F1 and I think it’s a shame he got so close, only for USF1 to pull out. Thankfully it hasn’t done his career in tin tops/sportscars any harm

No indeed, he could still have made it if USF1 and Adrian Campos (Lord rest his soul) had been willing to merge, him and Bruno Senna would have at least been promising.