The Future of F3

[edenrace]

I work with the teams in British F3 and believe me the current situation has nothing to do with SRO, they have worked closely with the teams to try and make it work but sadly Berger/FIA do not want British F3 to succeed and have with the support of the German engine manufacturers made the current situation impossible. That is why it is better to survive for a year with a restricted programe and hope things change or die forever.

[Go_For_Pole]

The mistake was always the insistence on staying with FIA rules. With long life engines and possibly other cost cutting measures BF3 would have been just fine. Alas that was not fit for the university of motorsport, was it?

[bella]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I believe the face that SRO don't care about vehicles without roofs or wheelarches is a big factor. Plus their "get rich quick, steal all the profits" mentality isn't helping. A change of promoter would be a good move.

i'd like to hear what and who you'd suggest as an alternative. f3 certainly isn't sro's area of expertise but it's still here now and the calendar has always been the best of what has been reasonably available. they could have easily turned it into a one make formula, they haven't, and it's still here.

like i said before, i have doubts (in the same way i side-eye the way the wsr event is run sometimes), but they're outweighed by the fact it's still here and the essence of the formula hasn't been devalued.

[edenrace]

Engine cost not ridiculous as cars ran for 10,000Kms this is more than most series. Approx price £80,000.
Many cost reductions have taken place but budgets of £500,000 to £700,000 are not the problem for the distances and circuits raced on.
Majority of drivers in 2012 British F3 came from outside Europe but the FIAs indecision re its Championship made many head to GP3 and WSR instead of F3 these series cost just as much and more in the case of WSR.

[brakedisc]

"Engine cost not ridiculous as cars ran for 10,000Kms this is more than most series. Approx price £80,000.
Many cost reductions have taken place but budgets of £500,000 to £700,000 are not the problem for the distances and circuits raced on.
Majority of drivers in 2012 British F3 came from outside Europe but the FIAs indecision re its Championship made many head to GP3 and WSR instead of F3 these series cost just as much and more in the case of WSR."

And you wonder why someone asked about mismanagement.

[bella]

instead of leaving that as just a swing of your handbag, would you care to constructively elaborate? remember the attack the post, not the poster rule, please.

[Moneyseeker]

Last couple of years we have seen the slow death of anything above entry level single seaters in national racing.

I can't see that changing anytime soon as F Renault found out, but again the NEC and Europe series are in good health.

I think it likely that a motorsport ladder will develop that sees series like FFord 200 and maybe F4 used as the training ground for young drivers, those with budget will move to European F Ren and those without will try BARC Renault for a year to see if anything turns up.

Drivers don't want to pay £700k to race at Snett and Oulton Park, they want to be racing in Europe and at some bigger events.

Market forces, the teams will race where their customers want to go - some have said they will do the limited BF3 series, but this will be to give more seat time for their European drivers and get extra budget in.

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by bella

instead of leaving that as just a swing of your handbag, would you care to constructively elaborate? remember the attack the post, not the poster rule, please.

Are you suggesting that brake disc made an attack on the poster of the comment bella? Really????

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

some have said they will do the limited BF3 series, but this will be to give more seat time for their European drivers and get extra budget in.

Actually, some might run other drivers who wouldn't have been able to afford any high-level F3 series - so it might actually give opportunities to some who couldn't otherwise have afforded to develop their careers in F3.

[bella]

Originally Posted by FFmygale

Are you suggesting that brake disc made an attack on the poster of the comment bella? Really????

i'm asking for an elaboration. this is a discussion about the future of f3. if someone thinks it has been badly run, let's hear why. and let's hear how they'd improve it.

i'm not throwing my weight around, i just want a grown up discussion instead of people saying 'i don't like it'. this isn't facebook or twitter.

[brakedisc]

Bella I will try and respond but I am still in shock at seeing the statement.

"budgets of £500,000 to £700,000 are not the problem"

Of course they are the problem. So too is the fact that the cars no longer race at most of the circuits here and have lost spectator interest.

This has been coming for years and years. It might be the best thing that happens to BF3 because for the first time in years a BF3 budget will not cost £500k +.


I posted this months ago and I am glad to see things are getting closer.

"What would happen if the FIA decided that F3 was a 3 level series. Level one would be a national championship running on a countries local circuits. When a driver reached a certain level and had a certain number of top ten finishes they could move to the next level. That would be a regional series, Europe, Asia etc before moving on to the final level which would be on a GP weekend. If the dates were well organised, the teams could use the same equipment to do all the events using 3 drivers at the different levels. The cost of equipment would be spread across the 3 levels and the drivers and teams would get a chance to increase their knowledge rather than pounding round Pembery all day."

On the management side I have always taken issue with the fact that it is called the British F3 championship yet on and off for years it has failed to visit certain circuits but prefer to go to Bucharest. Disputes with MSV, etc springs to mind.

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

Actually, some might run other drivers who wouldn't have been able to afford any high-level F3 series - so it might actually give opportunities to some who couldn't otherwise have afforded to develop their careers in F3.

Well, it's four weekends we are talking here, how much will they develop anyway?

edenrace: deals are done even this year in GP3 for 300k Euros all inclussive. We have been saying this for the last couple of years, BF3 priced itself out of the market. BF3 should have made changes to drastically cut costs from last winter yet it chose to stay with FIA engines, unlimited aero and all the bell & whistles, that's what people label mismanagement.

You might say that finding customers at 500-700k pounds is not a problem, yet reality is different. Let's see how many drivers British teams bring into F3 Euroseries anyway.

[edenrace]

Deals are available in F3 for under 300,000 euros as well. If the team has a sponsor that is .Talk about the real cost please.
F3 has restricted aero from 2012 and other restricted items introduced to ensure that costs do not rise.
If you do not run FIA cars then it is not F3 and not allowed in Macau and other F3 events
Easy to make a cheap one make series like F2....Oh that did not work either.

[ivanalesi]

The problem lies with the approach of the teams, all the talk about heritage and pure this and that. You have to adapt, not just stay as it once was simply because you have your heritage, tradition and everything will be OK attitude with the "Senna & Brundle raced in small grids" line.
There's market for 500-700k GBP drivers, yep - most of them talentless!

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by edenrace

Deals are available in F3 for under 300,000 euros as well. If the team has a sponsor that is .Talk about the real cost please

Sorry, I wouldn't care about the real cost or the motives of people offering cheaper drives. The fact is that consistently GP3 teams offer such deals to the right drivers. Now if you can please tell us the actual number of 300k euros drives in the 2012 BF3 Class A grid?

Originally Posted by edenrace

If you do not run FIA cars then it is not F3 and not allowed in Macau and other F3 events.

So what? Is it any better that the series is dead now?

Originally Posted by edenrace

Easy to make a cheap one make series like F2....Oh that did not work either.

Well, it works just fine for Open F3

[blindfold]

Yeah aero has been restircted etc etc, but the cost of a F312 nose assembly is higher than that of the old F308.

Regualtions were tightened to make sure there were less bits to knock off the cars, to save money. But for Dallara to get the performance back (because they can't be seen to sell a new car that's slower than the old) they had to make the front wing more intricate, and therefore more expensive. And what's the first part that always get's knocked off?! Actually reading that back I don't believe it myself. I think they just hiked the price up to counter the lack of bargeboard sales.

For me I see a couple of big reasons why this has happened. The first is that every championship felt it needed to be European, and the FIA did nothing to stop this. British went overseas, Spanish became Euro Open, German went around Europe to some extent. Andtherefore the boundries of the championships became merged. And if you're paying the £500k for British, you may as well pay £500k for Euroseries right, because that's the best?! And if you haven't got £500k, you might as well do Euro Open, because it's still on great European circuits, in the same car, right?!

Also, do people really see it relevant in their motorsport career's to be racing at Oulton Park, and Snetterton etc? Probably not anymore, and definately not when the championship itself feel's it needs to go oversees to save it's own credibility. To me that just says 'Yeah our circuit's aren't relevant any more, but you can still race on 50% relevant circuits, for the same price as the championship racing on 90%'.

Cut the costs, cut out the 1 or 2 team monopoly (duopoly?!), and make it a truly British championship and that would be a start. Oh, and give it some proper exposure, but do the public actually care about motorsport anymore?!

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by blindfold

Also, do people really see it relevant in their motorsport career's to be racing at Oulton Park, and Snetterton etc? Probably not anymore, and definately not when the championship itself feel's it needs to go oversees to save it's own credibility. To me that just says 'Yeah our circuit's aren't relevant any more, but you can still race on 50% relevant circuits, for the same price as the championship racing on 90%'.

Cut the costs, cut out the 1 or 2 team monopoly (duopoly?!), and make it a truly British championship and that would be a start. Oh, and give it some proper exposure, but do the public actually care about motorsport anymore?!

I really think you have summed up the crux of the matter there.

It's as if BF3 feel it "has the right" to survive because of it's glorious past. Any marketing profesional will be able to give you hundreds of examples of famous brands (because that's what BF3 is) who felt the same and failed as a result.

Flogging around Oulton and Snett costs the same (maybe more if you go off track in Cheshire!) as racing at FIA grade 1 tracks you will probably race or test on again. Add to that Motors TV or Ch 4 at 4 am with very few viewers vs being on the DTM bill, with actual spectators and I know where I'd want to be.

[davyboy]

Two very good posts directly above.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Two very good posts directly above.

I hate to say it but imo, unfortunately for Brit F3 those posts are fairly accurate yes....

In basic terms the spectator levels at F3 haven't increased in the last 20 years (possibly decreased) but the costs of entering F3 have probably trebled!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I hate to say it but imo, unfortunately for Brit F3 those posts are fairly accurate yes....

In basic terms the spectator levels at F3 haven't increased in the last 20 years (possibly decreased) but the costs of entering F3 have probably trebled!

Exactly. BF3 hasn't made sense for a while now which is why it's been propped up by uber wealthy journeymen

[bella]

is there not something to be gained from racing on the more unique of the british circuits? i'm thinking specifically of thruxton, silverstone gp (it's our f1 circuit, even if it's pants to watch) and knockhill. knockhill is almost like monaco in that there's not much time to stop and take a breath. even brands gp, for that matter.

otherwise i agree about the rest being pretty uninspiring. they could be pretty much anywhere, snetterton in particular.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by bella

is there not something to be gained from racing on the more unique of the british circuits? i'm thinking specifically of thruxton, silverstone gp (it's our f1 circuit, even if it's pants to watch) and knockhill. knockhill is almost like monaco in that there's not much time to stop and take a breath. even brands gp, for that matter.

otherwise i agree about the rest being pretty uninspiring. they could be pretty much anywhere, snetterton in particular.

I think there is much to be gained yes, but with the exception of Silverstone GP not in a an F3 car on a half a million pound budget with no spectators or live TV and with your sponsors queuing in the rain for a filthy portapotty.

[bella]

that's a bum steer, so to speak. there's decent bogs at knockhill and thruxton, and silverstones are palacial. if you head out into the wilderness your sponsors will have far more trouble finding an open convenience at spa, monza, the nurburgring, ricard and the hungaroring than at silverstone. some of the thrones us ladies are expected to visit at non-british circuits are totally vile. we do at least have an understanding here that ladies visit circuits and can't just go and find a hedge in a worst-case scenario.

i will however agree wholeheartedly with the notion that there are precious few opportunities to stay dry in upmarket surroundings at the british circuits.

completely off-topic and totally irrelevant and nit-picking, but just for the record

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bella

is there not something to be gained from racing on the more unique of the british circuits? i'm thinking specifically of thruxton, silverstone gp (it's our f1 circuit, even if it's pants to watch) and knockhill. knockhill is almost like monaco in that there's not much time to stop and take a breath. even brands gp, for that matter.

otherwise i agree about the rest being pretty uninspiring. they could be pretty much anywhere, snetterton in particular.

Times have changed. At BF3 level, drivers believe they're aspiring Grand Prix material and want to race on Grand Prix tracks... and... with GP3 they can not only do that but race on the Grand Prix support package too. These days the British circuits are for touring cars only... not my personal opinion... it's just the way it has turned out.

[bella]

totally agree with you, it's kind of sad that dull european circuits have taken over from random, but kind of epic british ones.

it rained most of last season regardless of where you were racing so it's kind of futile really!