Current F1 Power Supply Units - Page 19

**Adam43** · 10 May 2016, 19:07 (Ref:3640682)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

As others have pointed out, you are apparently upset with the use of hybrids in F1 and not about the general concepts of hybrids? At least the arguments you use point in that direction.

I think it is unclear. wnut has previously made points against it in general and specifically in road cars.

The current way it is used in F1 is a shame due to the limited 'output' that can be used. It would be good if there was more freedom to find the right balance. However it does help some development of the technology; management of the finite power, when to release it, efficiencies in storage and collection from both 'sources', as well as general practices with the power. However it could be greater if it was more open. Trouble is then we would have an expensive arms race which it seems people don't want. Hence the current restrictive rules.

wolfhound · 10 May 2016, 19:43 (Ref:3640696)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think it is unclear. wnut has previously made points against it in general and specifically in road cars.

The current way it is used in F1 is a shame due to the limited 'output' that can be used. It would be good if there was more freedom to find the right balance. However it does help some development of the technology; management of the finite power, when to release it, efficiencies in storage and collection from both 'sources', as well as general practices with the power. However it could be greater if it was more open. Trouble is then we would have an expensive arms race which it seems people don't want. Hence the current restrictive rules.

Instead they spend their money running wind tunnels 24/7

**Adam43** · 10 May 2016, 20:14 (Ref:3640702)

Your point is presumably that they don't want to waste money on hybrid development, but do aero development?

Well there a few dynamics at play there. Firstly one more naturally falls to the teams (chassis manufacturers) and the other to the engine suppliers. So the regulation of that isn't identical. Secondly, one area is easy to regulate in terms of the performance you get out of it (it's in the rules), the other is regulated by the restrictions placed on it (e.g. not outside this box).

Presently wind tunnel activity is limited to a maximum amount of time and isn't 24/7.

None of this is saying the priority is right, just that a throw away line like that has, beneath the surface more to it. It is interesting and important to note how we got to where we are an also the challenges in changing it. I fear that these behind the scenes meetings don't develop any discussion further than that which occurs on an internet forum.

Mike Harte · 10 May 2016, 20:40 (Ref:3640712)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Instead they spend their money running wind tunnels 24/7

No, there are strict rules restricting both wind-tunnel and CFD. Taken from Autosport:

Quote:

Each measure (wind-on time/teraflop) is used as a single unit and the cap sits at 30 units in the testing period.

So a team could use up to 30 hours per week of wind-on time and no CFD processing, or 30 teraflop of CFD and no wind-tunnel or a combination of both.

There are further restrictions on usage; the above apply to full power usage.

wolfhound · 10 May 2016, 20:41 (Ref:3640713)

I think there are a number of people involved in F1 who see power units in a similar way to Colin Chapman did, i.e. something to allow him to show his ability to design and build fast chassis. We have had a number of years where the aero dept's have ruled F1 in terms of performance. Instead we now have a situation where power units are also a significant performance variable. There are those in F1 who don't see the value in having the current type of power unit as they don't all have the same performance.
I think the current power units should be of value to the manufacturers as they are developing technologies that are relevant to road cars. However the promotion of this aspect of F1 is missing and all we hear about is the noise or lack of it and that all the power units do not produce the same power. In reality are these important?

I also think that the more open rules in LMP1 are of more value to manufacturers than those in F1.

In general I think that it is a good idea for F1 to use fuel flow restrictions as a way to limit power output rather than engine size, air restrictors or revs as fuel flow is more relevant to the road car industry.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 13 May 2016, 16:10 (Ref:3641393)

Honda say they aren't ready to supply a second team.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124246

S griffin · 13 May 2016, 16:13 (Ref:3641395)

Of course, they need to get their own house in order before they branch out to another team

**bjohnsonsmith** · 6 Jul 2016, 11:13 (Ref:3657231)

Apparently no one wants to be Honda's second team.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/125156

BSchneiderFan · 6 Jul 2016, 12:15 (Ref:3657236)

You can understand why. It's clearly the slowest of the four engines. Red Bull had a lucky escape last year in retaining Renault/TAG Heuer units.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 6 Jul 2016, 12:27 (Ref:3657241)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

You can understand why. It's clearly the slowest of the four engines. Red Bull had a lucky escape last year in retaining Renault/TAG Heuer units.

It seems to be improving. Obviously being out of the engine manufacturing loop, Honda have a lot of catching up do, particularly with the ERS.

BSchneiderFan · 6 Jul 2016, 13:06 (Ref:3657256)

Definitely improving. But why would any existing customer of Mercedes, Ferrari or Renault make the switch? What would make you think Honda will suddenly leapfrog everyone else? I suppose the only inducement would be cheap engines if Honda thought a bargain deal was worth it to advance development. Sauber is the only team I could really see going for that.

Oldtony · 7 Jul 2016, 02:13 (Ref:3657400)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

You can understand why. It's clearly the slowest of the four engines. Red Bull had a lucky escape last year in retaining Renault/TAG Heuer units.

Probably correct but I think there is a possibility next year could provide a surprise.
I've been following the Honda saga in some of the tech blogs and there is no douby they started off going down the wrong track.
To a major extent this was caused by trying to fit within the packagiong dimensions dictated by McLaren in their aim for an aero advantage. Once on that cvourse it became very hard to turn round due to the token system. Easy to sympathise with McDennis but to a large extent their difficulties are self inflicted.
At present Honda have moved as far as possible until they are free of the token limits on what they can do with thermal recovery. To some extent next year is a whole new ball game.
It is certainly a pity that Honda don't have another chassis to help with the development.

knighty · 29 Jul 2016, 08:40 (Ref:3661804)

Do my eyes deceive me or is the Alfa-Romeo logo on the sides of the Ferraris at Hockenheim?........yes it is!.....how long has that been on there?......all season?......I cant help but think that either Alfa-Romeo or Maserati brands will soon be in some form of very top flight motorsport, either DTM, WEC or F1.

http://www.autosport.com/live/commentary/id/2247092/german-gp-friday-practice

.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 29 Jul 2016, 15:33 (Ref:3661855)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

Do my eyes deceive me or is the Alfa-Romeo logo on the sides of the Ferraris at Hockenheim?........yes it is!.....how long has that been on there?......all season?......I cant help but think that either Alfa-Romeo or Maserati brands will soon be in some form of very top flight motorsport, either DTM, WEC or F1.

http://www.autosport.com/live/commen...riday-practice

.

The Alfa logo's been on the car since 2015.

BSchneiderFan · 29 Jul 2016, 16:45 (Ref:3661878)

Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into that.

Do Alfa have a model that would fit the DTM? The Giulia?

merak1974 · 29 Jul 2016, 22:12 (Ref:3661943)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knighty

Do my eyes deceive me or is the Alfa-Romeo logo on the sides of the Ferraris at Hockenheim?........yes it is!.....how long has that been on there?......all season?......I cant help but think that either Alfa-Romeo or Maserati brands will soon be in some form of very top flight motorsport, either DTM, WEC or F1.

http://www.autosport.com/live/commen...riday-practice

.

Maserati in WEC makes a lot of sense (to me...). As does Alfa in DTM and Touring car championships.

TzeiTzei · 2 Aug 2016, 10:28 (Ref:3663005)

Maybe in GT. If they have a suitable car. Can't see them doing prototypes. That's quite expensive.

BSchneiderFan · 2 Aug 2016, 16:58 (Ref:3663078)

GranTurismo?

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