BTCC 2024 News & Rumours

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm fairly confident that when I read the news release on the BTCC website that it did state that a car would be present at the show, however it now says at all BTCC rounds. Unless I misread it, they must have updated the release.

it never said autosport show

[Ant25]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

i heard the exact opposite!
btcc wont have their own stand at that show again

I’m sure I’ve read that they will have there own stand at the autosport show

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I know this is a BTCC 2024 thread, but this doesn't really count as either BTCC or 2024.

https://www.btcc.net/2023/11/06/prop...hip-announced/
First detail of the new for 2025 junior support category.

1.8l 4-cyl sealed 'TOCA' engine, RWD with front/rear subframes (NGTC jr), with generic bodywork. Run by the same BARC that run the JSCC (Junior Saxos)

Sounds similar to the old T-Cars series that Tom Chilton started in.

So the main series currently is mainly FWD, with rumours WSR is "forced" to switch to a FWD BMW. Now they introduce a RWD junior series. This doesn't make sense.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by FIRE

So the main series currently is mainly FWD, with rumours WSR is "forced" to switch to a FWD BMW. Now they introduce a RWD junior series. This doesn't make sense.

I can see where you're coming from, but this series seems (to me at least) to be positioned as "the future of high-level junior racing within the UK" rather than as a BTCC feeder series.

When viewed as a "high-level" junior series in the market it makes sense. Cash in on the prestige of the BTCC support slot (if this "prestige" exists) and provide a more premium junior series than a conventional club racing event. Whilst some of the young drivers they are targeting with this series probably will move up to MINIs or the BTCC, lots will use it (as remains the case for Ginetta Juniors) as a platform to get a year or so of car racing experience before a British F4/GB4/Formula Regional/GB3 season or stepping up to GT racing - all of which are RWD.

[S griffin]

I just feel the whole demonising of RWD has been to detriment of the series. The fact is both FWD and RWD have their own strengths and disadvantages and certainly means their is more scope for variety

[auroan]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I just feel the whole demonising of RWD has been to detriment of the series. The fact is both FWD and RWD have their own strengths and disadvantages and certainly means their is more scope for variety

But the last junior series was never intended to be a feeder for the BTCC, and its a case with this one. Lando Norris is the absolute perfect example of what the ginettas did to get young talent started and developing all the way up to the "pinnacle" of motorsport.

TOCA just want to have a piece of that going forward commercially. There isnt a current platform that they can partner with.... so they are going their own way and owning all the tech and therefore revenue. Take BTCC out of the equation as a target.... this new junior series is just using the prestige of the BTCC to justify the cost of these new cars and therefore bring in more revenue.

The only place FWD racing happens in in club level motorsports and touring cars.

The rest of the racing world is dominated by RWD. Using Lando as a example again. How likely do you think he'd have ended up in F1 if he started out in saxo or fiestas compared to a ginetta on the TOCA package ?

At such a young age I would bet my mortgage that most kids with the kinda money to run on the TOCA show ticket are thinking of something bigger than a career in FWD saloon car racing.

[S griffin]

Touring car racing shouldn’t only be FWD. RWD should still have it’s place. Obviously 4WD is out of the question, but if you exclude RWD, that’s a bad move. What does it matter who has what drivetrain? It’s also how cars are developed that’s important

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Touring car racing shouldn’t only be FWD. RWD should still have it’s place. Obviously 4WD is out of the question, but if you exclude RWD, that’s a bad move. What does it matter who has what drivetrain? It’s also how cars are developed that’s important

What relevance does RWD have any more? There are very few pure RWD cars on sale these days

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Touring car racing shouldn’t only be FWD. RWD should still have it’s place. Obviously 4WD is out of the question, but if you exclude RWD, that’s a bad move. What does it matter who has what drivetrain? It’s also how cars are developed that’s important

With the grid now having just a single RWD car represented, I don't see the argument for it being a bad move to exclude it in future.

The easiest (and IMO obvious) solution is to give a timeframe for current RWD cars to be no longer permitted and restrict any new homologation to FWD.

WSR have entered FWD previously and BMW now have FWD options that would meet the entry criteria, so they would be able to adapt. No other team would be affected.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The easiest (and IMO obvious) solution is to give a timeframe for current RWD cars to be no longer permitted and restrict any new homologation to FWD.

Good idea. How many years ago do you think they were told?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Good idea. How many years ago do you think they were told?

In 2009, the specification was FWD only. It was only under pressure from certain teams that the series backed down and allowed RWD as well.

Although - the early specification also included the provision of an 'over-boost', which we are now only getting 15 years later.

The usual cycle is 5 years, so any restriction on eligibility would normally carry a 5-year notice period.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

With the grid now having just a single RWD car represented, I don't see the argument for it being a bad move to exclude it in future.

The easiest (and IMO obvious) solution is to give a timeframe for current RWD cars to be no longer permitted and restrict any new homologation to FWD.

WSR have entered FWD previously and BMW now have FWD options that would meet the entry criteria, so they would be able to adapt. No other team would be affected.

But why should we force them to? The fact is there is still a place for RWD. Just because there's only one RWD make on the grid doesn't mean there should be none. Moving to FWD only is wrong in my view. If you make cars too similar, it will make it less exciting. Cars need different strengths and weaknesses for excitement. Variety needs to be kept. RWD should never have been targeted just because a few teams did a better job of engineering their car than others

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In 2009, the specification was FWD only. It was only under pressure from certain teams that the series backed down and allowed RWD as well.

Although - the early specification also included the provision of an 'over-boost', which we are now only getting 15 years later.

The usual cycle is 5 years, so any restriction on eligibility would normally carry a 5-year notice period.

So, WSR were told in 2018?

[BtccLee]

Originally Posted by peebee2

So, WSR were told in 2018?

I think we are all forgetting a major contributor here. BMW has been moving its road-car range towards FWD, and has been keen to promote the fact the driving experience is still at a level fans of the brand would expect.

Whilst I am sure WSR would like to (and may still) continue to run the 3-series, it is equally as likely that the pressure to change won't just be coming from TOCA.

All conjecture at this point, and weren't we told in the summer break that the 2-series (and in all likelihood, therefore) the FWD switch was off the table?

[coffinpilot]

Originally Posted by Ant25

I’m sure I’ve read that they will have there own stand at the autosport show

Motorsport News are having a big stand that is based around BTCC.
That's according to show organiser Ben Whibley.

Don't quite get Motorsport News these days. I still read it. And I know part of the deal when it was bought out was that the website wouldn't be allowed to carry news stuff, but look at their website now. If they can't afford a proper website, how can they afford to pay for a stand at Autosport?!!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

Motorsport News are having a big stand that is based around BTCC.
That's according to show organiser Ben Whibley.

Don't quite get Motorsport News these days. I still read it. And I know part of the deal when it was bought out was that the website wouldn't be allowed to carry news stuff, but look at their website now. If they can't afford a proper website, how can they afford to pay for a stand at Autosport?!!

Also - and I must say its ages since I have read it - isn't MN more Rally and clubby orientated?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

So, WSR were told in 2018?

Is that what the paddock is saying?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But why should we force them to?

To avoid the need to wade through comments such as:

“NGTC has been a great success in terms of giving teams the opportunity to compete in the BTCC. What has become clear, however, is that as the cars have now been developed close to the maximum of their performance within the regulations, the NGTC technical regs favour a RWD platform.”

If RWD was removed from the championship when NGTC was introduced, then very quickly we would have virtually nobody stating for it to be returned.

The initial tech specs for NGTC stated that it would 'Reduce the potential for significant performance disparities between cars' by making the series 'Front-wheel-drive' only from 2011.

The fact that FWD vs RWD is still debated 15 years later shows that it was a mistake (IMO) to go back on that decision.

[auroan]

Originally Posted by BtccLee

I think we are all forgetting a major contributor here. BMW has been moving its road-car range towards FWD, and has been keen to promote the fact the driving experience is still at a level fans of the brand would expect.

Whilst I am sure WSR would like to (and may still) continue to run the 3-series, it is equally as likely that the pressure to change won't just be coming from TOCA.

All conjecture at this point, and weren't we told in the summer break that the 2-series (and in all likelihood, therefore) the FWD switch was off the table?

Erm they are not. They are moving their small car ice platform to share the same as the mini. But everything else is staying RWD and all the EVs are RWD.

In fact..... look at the generality of EV cars on the market. They are RWD

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is that what the paddock is saying?

Not necessarily, just pointing out to you that the vast majority of series info is not in the public domain, be it BTCC or F1

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

To avoid the need to wade through comments such as:

“NGTC has been a great success in terms of giving teams the opportunity to compete in the BTCC. What has become clear, however, is that as the cars have now been developed close to the maximum of their performance within the regulations, the NGTC technical regs favour a RWD platform.”

If RWD was removed from the championship when NGTC was introduced, then very quickly we would have virtually nobody stating for it to be returned.

The initial tech specs for NGTC stated that it would 'Reduce the potential for significant performance disparities between cars' by making the series 'Front-wheel-drive' only from 2011.

The fact that FWD vs RWD is still debated 15 years later shows that it was a mistake (IMO) to go back on that decision.

Sorry, but that’s a nonsense reason. The fact that there have been more titles have been won by FWD since NGTC started, shows that RWD hasn’t necessarily been the preferred choice. It’s paranoia from FWD teams. It’s never how well the car has been developed or how well the likes of Turkington or Sutton have driven better than the others, if a RWD car wins it’s always the drivetrain. Just because people feel the need to debate the issue does not mean we should give up RWD. It’s not like there isn’t a drawback to running RWD either. It isn’t exactly favourable in mixed conditions for example

Fact is both FWD and RWD have been always been allowed and I don’t see why that should change. Different spec of cars suit different circuits and that means we get a good mix. So RWD should still be an option, rather than limiting it to FWD.

[Jon411]

Just reading on Autosport within an article about Sutton/ Motorbase that WSR look to have decided to refine the 3series rather than run a FWD 2series.

Within the article it mentions that they want to improve the car without pushing it to the point where it attracts more penalties as John Waterman says they have had to run the car with the boost cuts that were imposed in 2019 still so they don't to do anything too drastic to cause them to be hit with more restrictions.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Jon411

Just reading on Autosport within an article about Sutton/ Motorbase that WSR look to have decided to refine the 3series rather than run a FWD 2series.

Within the article it mentions that they want to improve the car without pushing it to the point where it attracts more penalties as John Waterman says they have had to run the car with the boost cuts that were imposed in 2019 still so they don't to do anything too drastic to cause them to be hit with more restrictions.

It's quite an interesting article that describes the fortunes and misfortunes of the this year's top 10.

One point made is that Mountune created re-profiled camshafts for the Focus', as did Swindon and M-Sport. However, possibly requested by NAPA, the Ford's new camshafts were created to give more driveability, whilst the two other engine suppliers' engines were given a deduction in boost which must mean that they produced more power than TOCA's ruleset permits.

As mentioned in either this or another thread, the article gives an insight in to the pre season testing. According to Sutton, they started early in the year which gave all 4 drivers whole days each to dial in their cars, and in the dry. Other teams, started later on, and were hampered by wet conditions. So in answer to the question by someone else on here, yes the teams were doing pre-season testing but they just don't publicise the fact of what they are doing. Having said that, there were some drivers and/or teams that didn't test at all until the official Donington test, and then at least one driver didn't even have a car ready for that, if my memory is correct.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Jon411

Just reading on Autosport within an article about Sutton/ Motorbase that WSR look to have decided to refine the 3series rather than run a FWD 2series.

Within the article it mentions that they want to improve the car without pushing it to the point where it attracts more penalties as John Waterman says they have had to run the car with the boost cuts that were imposed in 2019 still so they don't to do anything too drastic to cause them to be hit with more restrictions.

The ridiculous thing is, that BMW should (in theory) have good straight like speed due to the fact that it has a low drag body(one of the best?). It seems like they were punished for a simple trait of the car’s body shape. Surely they should be equalising engine power and not straight line speed…?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The ridiculous thing is, that BMW should (in theory) have good straight like speed due to the fact that it has a low drag body(one of the best?). It seems like they were punished for a simple trait of the car’s body shape. Surely they should be equalising engine power and not straight line speed…?

The 2019 boost cuts being referred to here were not based on straight line speed, or the current body shape.