The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

That is nothing new, they did that during the WEC races last year sometimes as well.

Are you sure of this? The combustion engine of 2012 TS030 supposedly did not have a starter motor. See post #3927.

Originally Posted by Acid09

I was actually wondering about that and never asked, I thought the ACO mandated that the hybrid system needs to be used in the pits. Or am I confusing that with the requirement of the car having to be able to complete the full pit lane only on hybrid power?

The "400 meters on hybrid power in pitlane" rule is just a test to be classified as a hybrid LMP1.

It is not a requirement to do this is race conditions. Such requirement was the plan at one stage for F1 in 2014.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I still think that it is strange. The whole point of kickstarting the combustion engine with the hybrid system is that they don't need a conventional starter motor. And that this saves weigh.

Hisatake Murata does reveal that they are already testing solutions for 2014:
source: http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/to...s-2013-season/

In the same article they also talk about having a weight increase of 15 kg's.

How many changes have been made for the 2013 TS030 HYBRID compared to last year’s car?
We took the chance to fine-tune various aspects of the car, making an evolution of the 2012 specification rather than a new concept. We have removed the front hybrid capability, resulting in more efficient packaging and aerodynamics. This helps us to manage the 15kg minimum weight increase without compromising performance too much. Our simulations show we have made good progress inperformance, and our hands-on experience suggests we have eliminated some of the serviceability issues which occasionally cost time in 2012.

They might have just figured putting a low weight starter motor on it doesn't do much damage to performance because it can be put low down and it increases reliability a lot.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by NelisB

In the same article they also talk about having a weight increase of 15 kg's.



They might have just figured putting a low weight starter motor on it doesn't do much damage to performance because it can be put low down and it increases reliability a lot.

This indeed appears to be a reasonable explanation.

[Gingers4Justice]

It sounds a lot more interesting than it did last year! I like that sound a lot.

[Bubak]

Personally I have a problem with rear wing and aero solution, especially with leading edge wing extension. Yes, at LM 2012 it was with full (see here http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemansl...akia/lightbox/ ), now is only in the just a middle ( http://www.toyotahybridracing.com/wp...3_launch_2.jpg ). But sprint 2012 version had a nice great thing: it was a whole one segment ( see here http://www.dailysportscar.com/publis...twalk1111.JPG? ) Did you remeber when Toyota take 1st place during LM 2012? Nicolas Lappiere had broken a left leading edge extension. Sprint version have never broken, every race during last year it was without a problem, so I expect, if Toyota do not use a wheel arch extensions so they only use a only inside segment and it will be with all in one, just like you can see at DSC link or here full http://www.flickr.com/photos/lemansl...akia/lightbox/

Other way, I expected that Toyota use wheel arch extensions for their low drag version for LM, or little biger diveplane for the front. So, and here it is... last year Toyota did not a problem at the straight line, but as we know, Le Mans is not just only about a Mulsanne Straight but Porsche curves can decide and decide a race (ask Peugeot during LM 2011 ) Yeah, maybe Toyota rely on their hybrid system (boost), but these corners can be very tricky and during race and traffic you must need so so much downforce. Also, there are a difference between LMP1 before 2011 and after (just look at Oreca grandfather car and 908 2011, 908 Hdi Fap with restrictors can much more easily get a Porsche curves...) etc. So, Toyota last year lost about one point five second at Porsche curves. Now, I am praying now that Toyota is sandbagging and this is non final version, just like ACO say what surprise Toyota will finally bring to Le Mans.

It seems that some manufacturers will never learn and will make the same mistakes over and over.

But also, I am looking forward to Silverstone. And there to see sprint version of TS030 2013. So, Toyota will be the new king of sprints. 8-) And LM winner: the Audi Sport Team Joest! :-)

[dj choc ice]

Certainly appears to be running in its LM aero configuration. It sounds more like last years Rebellion Toyota engine, seems to be louder judging from the videos as well and the exhaust has something of the old Zytek 04S about it. I'm looking forward to Silverstone an awful lot now, wonder what the sprint aero will look like. One would assume it will be the addition of the fender extensions for the rear wing with a similar front aero treatment plus diveplanes?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

Certainly appears to be running in its LM aero configuration. It sounds more like last years Rebellion Toyota engine, seems to be louder judging from the videos as well and the exhaust has something of the old Zytek 04S about it. I'm looking forward to Silverstone an awful lot now, wonder what the sprint aero will look like. One would assume it will be the addition of the fender extensions for the rear wing with a similar front aero treatment plus diveplanes?

If the front-end treatment for Le Mans is anything like it has been on the Peugeots, then the front end for the sprint races might look a bit more like the one they used last year (plus the requisite diveplanes obviously).

[Bubak]

http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/to...ion-_9879.html

"More than new car”, said Pascal Vasselon, technical director, “we would say an evolution. We worked the aerodynamics and air flow especially at the front. At spa, a significant change will happens on the rear of the car. It can't be seen but the monocoque was much changed, especially the front part. It is also lighter. The driving position has been relocated, giving greater visibility to drivers. Powertrain and hybrid system are identical to 2012, but they have been many improvements... The shock absorbers are different, etc.. Finally, and not least, we have worked to make mechanical interventions easier to reduce the time spent in the pits.”

Toyota also took into account the weight of 15 kilos imposed by 2013 regulations which will, with two other adjustments (refuelling rate reduced and inlet flanges modified), will allow private LM P1 competitors to be closer to the works cars. "The ballast” said Vasselon, “will penalize us six tenths on lap at Le Mans, with the other two regulatory changes, the difference between private and works cars will be halved.“

Yeah yeah! :-)

[Victor_RO]

6 tenths my ar$e, both Toyota and Audi will have developed their cars enough to be 1-2s/LM lap faster than last year despite the new restrictions.

[Skemer]

This car sounds seriously wicked.

[gregtummer]

Maybe he means 6 tenths without any improvements to the car.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Did I say that Toyota was following Peugeot ? I was just noting that Toyota have opted, like Peugeot at the time (e.g. in 2009), for a similar front-aero treatment, namely for a "smooth" surface exhibiting a substantially constant slope raising from the front splitter and covering the front wishbones and front suspension.


Objectively, this design choice made by Toyota (while possibly more extreme) is closer to the philosophy adopted by Peugeot at the time than to that followed by Audi IMHO.

Basically low drag for LM!

[gwyllion]

A short technical analysis by Sam Collins: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/c...ta-ts030-2013/

It was thought at one time that the 2012 chassis would be used by customer teams TOMS and SARD both of which have expressed a clear desire to return to Le Mans but proposed deals did not materialise.

The new car has a more central seating position for the driver to improve visibility, and a new aero package that is aimed at reducing the sensitivity of the car to changing conditions.

Part of that aero package is a much lower nose, something that has resulted from the chassis redesign.

The curved rear wing endplates of the 2012 car remain in place, it remains to be seen if they flex at high speed as ones fitted to the original car did.

[Livininthinair]

something I found interesting from the above Sam Collins article -

"It was thought at one time that the 2012 chassis would be used by customer teams TOMS and SARD both of which have expressed a clear desire to return to Le Mans but proposed deals did not materialise"

...might be something to look forward to in the future... but no mention of ORECA as a stand alone werks team - maybe that just goes without saying...

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Livininthinair

...might be something to look forward to in the future... but no mention of ORECA?

Of course not, ORECA is to Toyota right now just about what Joest is to Audi.

[Victor_RO]

https://twitter.com/Nico_Lapierre/st...839424/photo/1

Looks like the media day is followed by another endurance test.

[Acid09]

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...tml?ga_from=bn

Article from Motorsport-Total on Toyota's commitment for 2014 and beyond.

Toyota is already working on the 2014 car, starting with a blank sheet of paper. It all sounds like Toyota is in it for the long haul, let's just hope there's no earthquake, Godzilla attack or anything else to scare off the bean counters.

Audi vs. Porsche vs. Toyota might actually happen

Interestingly, Kino****a claims that the project operates on a third of Audi's budget. We heard similar stunning numbers from Peugeot back in the day but people brushed it off as them going overboard.

Now that Toyota comes to the same assessment, it seems like Audi is vastly outspending its competitors. That makes their non-Le Mans results the past few years look rather weak.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/...tml?ga_from=bn

Article from Motorsport-Total on Toyota's commitment for 2014 and beyond.

Toyota is already working on the 2014 car, starting with a blank sheet of paper. It all sounds like Toyota is in it for the long haul, let's just hope there's no earthquake, Godzilla attack or anything else to scare off the bean counters.

Audi vs. Porsche vs. Toyota might actually happen

Interestingly, Kino****a claims that the project operates on a third of Audi's budget. We heard similar stunning numbers from Peugeot back in the day but people brushed it off as them going overboard.

Now that Toyota comes to the same assessment, it seems like Audi is vastly outspending its competitors. That makes their non-Le Mans results the past few years look rather weak.

Funny that the (co)-creator of this:

Can beat the creator of this:


One of the things I love about Le Mans!
I really hope to see a long term Toyota entry. Something which can force Nissan and Honda to up their efforts.

Also I believe that Toyota really do spend a third on their Le Mans program compared to Audi. However I do believe that Audi's budget includes their massive PR events at Le Mans, and not 100% for the racing team!

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Interestingly, Kino****a claims that the project operates on a third of Audi's budget. We heard similar stunning numbers from Peugeot back in the day but people brushed it off as them going overboard.

Now that Toyota comes to the same assessment, it seems like Audi is vastly outspending its competitors. That makes their non-Le Mans results the past few years look rather weak.

Well, Kino****a openly admis in this interview that he has absolutely no clue about Audi's actual budget figures (how could HE know ?). So this is pure guess work

Now, with three cars at Spa and LM, testing duties at Yas Marina circuit in Abu Dhabi, a return trip to Sebring, and a strong desire to be in a far better shape compared to Toyota this year and to win LM (once again), one can surely bet that Audi are very likely outspending Toyota.

[Bubak]

New headlights for TS030: https://twitter.com/Nico_Lapierre/st...50960173137920

Also, exhaust area showed by Endurance Info. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3290427&type=1

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Bubak

New headlights for TS030: https://twitter.com/Nico_Lapierre/st...50960173137920

interesting, looks like a combination of the launch version and the LEDs used in 2012. I was always a bit surprised that those little LEDs were suffice...obviously they weren't

[chernaudi]

Video of the 2012 Toyota at LM--you can hear the engine running for a couple hundred feet after the speed limiter is activated, and you can hear the engine start within 3 seconds of leaving the pit box:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqJB1tCbOg8

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Bubak

New headlights for TS030: https://twitter.com/Nico_Lapierre/st...50960173137920

Also, exhaust area showed by Endurance Info. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...3290427&type=1

I like it!

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Interestingly, Kino****a claims that the project operates on a third of Audi's budget. We heard similar stunning numbers from Peugeot back in the day but people brushed it off as them going overboard.

Has Kinosh!ta included all the millions that Toyota invested in the TMG facilities in their F1 days, is this budget estimation?

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Has Kinosh!ta included all the millions that Toyota invested in the TMG facilities in their F1 days, is this budget estimation?

What are you talking about! - The TMG facilities payed itself with all their F1 Success.