[LM24] Le Mans Trap Speeds

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

2011 F1 regs:-

1.3-1.5 litre 4-cylinder engines!

Is that for the Right Or Left bank ??

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For some reason their pdf files and other technical data just don't work for me That's why I asked. Thx for the answers! So Audi R10 = Peugeot 908 = 339 km/h

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ok so now
does anybody know about the speeds of the audi r10 tdi in 2006? on the old configuration of the circuit...i think virtually the r10 was not faster in 2007 than in 2006, i believe it's all just about the modified tetre rouge. but i'd be curious about it's top speed on the other circuit variant.

[CUT 7]

and slightly off topic but related...
As I always try to find out on these furums & the answer so far is 'not much in it ' or 'Spa'.
Seems that people in the sport confirm this.But...
The question is which is faster.The (pre atmo -atmo not realy Gp C at all) Gp C cars or the current crop of LMP's ?
Top speeds there's no comparrison but overtall lap times ??

[sssssssss]

Group C and LMP1 cars are quite equally fast around the Le Mans track. If you look at the last years of the Group C, after the two chicanes were installed on the Mulsanne Straight (so that you may compare the Group C times with the LMP times around the circuit) - that is, from 1990 on - you won't find those frightening lap times of 3:14-3:15 anymore. In 1990, all cars qualified slower than 3:33, except for that awsome Nissan R90CK which poled at 3:27.020. In 1991, the Sauber C11 was in pole position with a lap of 3:31.270. The only truly paranormally fast Group C model was Peugeot's 905, which had a time of 3:21.209 in 1992 and over 3:22 in 1993. That car was really S.F., so Peugeot are to be feared at Le Mans in my opinion, even by such a manufacturer as Audi. For comparison, the current LMP cars on that same track configuration as the times listed above had pole times at least comparable, if not simply faster than most Group C cars: the Audi R8 poled at 3:29.905 in 2002, Toyota GT-One had the 1999 pole with 3:29.930, the Audi R10 went at 3:30.466 in 2006 (actually its best sectors suggest it could have gone at 3:29.248), the BMW V12 LMR of 1999 lapped at 3:31.209, the Mercedes CLR 1999 at 3:31.541, the Bentley of 2003 at 3:32.843 (I think:-??). So the LMP's can go just as fast as the Group C's, except for that mighty Peugeot 905. And even top speeds are comparable on the same track configuration.

[dj choc ice]

hard to say in a way, the modern car's have a much different design ethos to the group C car's, they had no air restrictor's back in the day and remember the sarthe was a very different track back then, a lot faster than it is now so the car's didnt need the high downforce they have now but super low drag.

hence the 240+ mph on the unchicaned mulsanne and the car's with the chicane's in were doing about 230mph, then came the group C 3.5litre car's, the daddy of all race car's and these formed the design basic's for the modern car's particularly the allard J2X.

over a lap time the fastest modern car's would probably just about top the early group C car's but no way would they top a 3.5litre car like a pug 905 or toyota TS010, the peugeot 905 lapped the chicaned sarthe on the test day in 1992 at something like 3:21.xxx, nowadays the 905 with a pro driver would lap around 3:18.xxx.

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Im still curious!
Dos anybody know the trap speeds for the 2006 edition of the Le Mans 24 Hours? I'd be greatful to find them out (especially Audi's)...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

... the peugeot 905 lapped the chicaned sarthe on the test day in 1992 at something like 3:21.xxx, nowadays the 905 with a pro driver would lap around 3:18.xxx.

Is that minus 3s because of new Tetre Rouge? Or a combination of all the changes (Dunlop)? I forget what Dunlop did to the lap times.

[sssssssss]

as far as i know it's a combination of all the changes...i think there was a slight change to the porsche curves too...but certainly the most important one is the faster tetre rouge, because not only do cars go faster around that section, but they also have much more momentum for the mulsanne straight, which means higher top speed and faster average speed on that first part of the mulsanne, which is still the fastest part of the track (now even more than in the past years).

[CUT 7]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

Group C and LMP1 cars are quite equally fast around the Le Mans track. If you look at the last years of the Group C, after the two chicanes were installed on the Mulsanne Straight (so that you may compare the Group C times with the LMP times around the circuit) - that is, from 1990 on - you won't find those frightening lap times of 3:14-3:15 anymore. In 1990, all cars qualified slower than 3:33, except for that awsome Nissan R90CK which poled at 3:27.020. In 1991, the Sauber C11 was in pole position with a lap of 3:31.270. The only truly paranormally fast Group C model was Peugeot's 905, which had a time of 3:21.209 in 1992 and over 3:22 in 1993. That car was really S.F., so Peugeot are to be feared at Le Mans in my opinion, even by such a manufacturer as Audi. For comparison, the current LMP cars on that same track configuration as the times listed above had pole times at least comparable, if not simply faster than most Group C cars: the Audi R8 poled at 3:29.905 in 2002, Toyota GT-One had the 1999 pole with 3:29.930, the Audi R10 went at 3:30.466 in 2006 (actually its best sectors suggest it could have gone at 3:29.248), the BMW V12 LMR of 1999 lapped at 3:31.209, the Mercedes CLR 1999 at 3:31.541, the Bentley of 2003 at 3:32.843 (I think:-??). So the LMP's can go just as fast as the Group C's, except for that mighty Peugeot 905. And even top speeds are comparable on the same track configuration.

V good info cheers.
So the answer is 'not much in it'
the atmo pug & jag wasnt realy a Gp c car so I kind of exclude them from my pontificating .They were the daddy though, speed wise.F1 cars with carbon fibre body bits .Thanks to bernie they were the death knell to Gp C...Oh no i got me self started again

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Is that minus 3s because of new Tetre Rouge? Or a combination of all the changes (Dunlop)? I forget what Dunlop did to the lap times.

if i can recall the 92 track had the normal old terte rouge obviously but i think dunlop chicane itself was a bit faster and the esses were not there so in all equivalency terms the 905 in reality i guess thinking on it would probably be about atleast 3 seconds faster than the 908.

in curiosity i wonder how fast the 905 was in a straight line, i can recall reading somewere it was doing about 220mph down the straight's, any have the trap speeds from the 1993 or 1992 qualyfying?

[sssssssss]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

if i can recall the 92 track had the normal old terte rouge obviously but i think dunlop chicane itself was a bit faster and the esses were not there so in all equivalency terms the 905 in reality i guess thinking on it would probably be about atleast 3 seconds faster than the 908.

in curiosity i wonder how fast the 905 was in a straight line, i can recall reading somewere it was doing about 220mph down the straight's, any have the trap speeds from the 1993 or 1992 qualyfying?

the peugeot 905 went 351 km/h on the mulsanne straight in 1992 in practice, but seemingley under 335 km/h in the race (i'm not sure about this second fact). in 1993 it reached 346 km/h in the race, dk about practice...

[CUT 7]

from my memory all the quick cars since the 1971 917's were regularly hitting 245mph some 250 or more.
After they put the chicanes in i think the atmo cars were hitting 235. But this is only from memory.
Actually as i think about it i remember reading that the fastest ever speed trap at LM was from the Atmo pugs.So i Guess that must be in excses of 250 mph.
If thats correct that realy is quite startling...
( erm whats 351 km in real money??)

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the 905 went 218mph (that's the equivalent for 351 km/h )

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and something else that might interest you, dj chock ice: the fastest car of the year 1993 in a straight line was the porsche 962c (just as in the good old days ) which topped at 366 km/h, still the record speed on the mulsanne chicane configuration to date. That's over 227mph!

[CUT 7]

i think i must be getting me 350's & 250's mixed up, eh.

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) that's ok cut 7! you don't have to be as freaky as i am and actually remember all this stuff! this is illness!

still: (does anybody know the 2006 trap speeds???

[sssssssss]

does anyone know the trap speeds for 2006 at le mans? the audi r10's and the pescarolo c60's are of specific interest for me in this matter.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

does anyone know the trap speeds for 2006 at le mans? the audi r10's and the pescarolo c60's are of specific interest for me in this matter.

Here are the trap speeds from the 2006 ACO data:

I guess in session 1 it rained in '06? The speeds are down substantially so I only grabbed the more "representative" speeds.

24 Heures
TOP FIVE SPEED - Séance Qualificative 2
# N° ENTRANTS DRIVERS Km/h
1 9 CREATION AUTOSPORTIF ORTIZ F.\CAMPBELL WALTER J\GABBIANI B. 3 32 329 328 326 325
2 16 PESCAROLO SPORT MINASSIAN N.\COLLARD E.\COMAS E. 327 327 324 324 324
3 8 AUDI SPORT TEAM JOEST BIELA F.\PIRRO E.\WERNER M. 326 325 324 322 321
4 14 RACING FOR HOLLAND LAMMERS J.\YOONG A.\JOHANSSON S. 325 323 323 323 323
5 17 PESCAROLO SPORT HELARY E.\MONTAGNY F.\LOEB S. 325 325 324 324 324
6 19 CHAMBERLAIN SYNERGY EVANS G.\OWEN P.\BERRIDGE B. 322 320 319 317 315
7 7 AUDI SPORT TEAM JOEST CAPELLO R.\KRISTENSEN T.\McNISH A. 320 319 318 318 318
8 13 COURAGE COMPETITION GOUNON JM.\KUROSAWA H.\NAKANO S. 3 19 319 318 317 316
9 2 ZYTEK ENGINEERING NIELSEN J.\ANDERSEN P.\ELGAARD C. 318 318 317 314 314
10 12 COURAGE COMPETITION FREI A.\FISKEN G.\HANCOCK S. 311 311 310 309 309
11 6 LISTER STORM RACING MOLLER J.\KIESA N.\PICKERING G. 309 299 298 296 294
12 25 RML ERDOS T.\NEWTON M.\WALLACE A. 309 308 306 304 304
13 5 SWISS SPIRIT PRIMAT H.\FASSLER M.\PETER P. 308 307 306 305 305
14 22 ROLLCENTRE RACING BARBOSA J.\MOSELEY St.\SHORT M. 304 304 304 303 302
15 53 JLOC ISAO NORITAKE APICELA M.\YAMANISHI K.\HINOI Y. 304 302 301 300 296
16 61 RUSSIAN AGE RACING VANN C.\SMITH N.\SUGDEN T. 303 302 302 300 299
17 37 PAUL BELMONDO RACING BOUVET JB.\ANDRE D.\CLAIRAY Y. 302 298 296 295 295
18 50 LARBRE COMPETITION GARDEL G.\BORNHAUSER P.\BLANCHEMAIN J-L3.0 2 301 297 295 293
19 39 CHAMBERLAIN SYNERGY AMARAL M.\DE CASTRO M.\HUGHES W. 302 301 300 300 298
20 109 ASTON MARTIN RACING LAMY P.\ORTELLI S.\SARRAZIN S. 301 301 301 300 298
21 33 INTERSPORT RACING FIELD C.\HALLIDAY L.\DAYTON D. 301 300 299 299 297
22 107 ASTON MARTIN RACING ENGE T.\PICCINI A.\TURNER D. 300 299 297 297 296
23 63 CORVETTE RACING FELLOWS R.\O'CONNELL J.\PAPIS M. 300 298 298 298 295
24 72 ALPHAND AVENTURES ALPHAND L.\GOUESLARD P.\POLICAND J. 300 298 298 289 289
25 67 CONVERS MENX TEAM PERGL R.\KOX P.\VASILIEV A. 300 299 299 297 297
26 64 CORVETTE RACING GAVIN O.\BERETTA O.\MAGNUSSEN J. 299 297 297 296 295
27 27 MIRACLE MOTORSPORTS MACALUSO J.\LALLY A.\JAMES I. 298 297 295 294 294
28 30 WELTER GERARD BRICHE J.\HAUCHARD F.\ROUSSEL P. 297 297 295 295 293
29 24 BINNIE MOTORSPORTS BINNIE B.\TIMPANY A.\TERADA Y. 296 295 294 294 291
30 36 PAUL BELMONDO RACING GOSSELIN C-Y.\OJJEH K.\RAGUES P. 296 295 295 295 295
31 66 ACEMCO MOTORSPORTS BORCHELLER T.\MOWLEN J\FITTIPALDI C. 296 292 291 290 289
32 62 RUSSIAN AGE RACING BRABHAM D.\PIQUET N.\GARCIA A. 296 295 293 291 290
33 35 G-FORCE RACING LEROCH J-F.\MORRIS E.\HAHN F. 294 292 290 285 285
34 83 SEIKEL MOTORSPORTS FARNBACHER D.\NIELSEN L.\EHRET P. 294 292 287 287 287
35 80 FLYING LIZARD MOTORSPORTSvan OVERBEEK J.\NEIMAN S.\LONG P. 293 289 289 289 288
36 69 BMS SCUDERIA ITALIA BABINI F.\GOLLIN F.\PESCATORI C 293 293 292 292 291
37 20 PIERRE BRUNEAU ROSTAN M.\MACALLISTER Ch.\PULLAN S 291 291 290 289 289
38 91 T2M MOTORSPORT YAMAGISHI Y.\de FOURNOUX J.\KONOPKA M. 2 9 1 290 289 288 288
39 87 SCUDERIA ECOSSE KIRKALDY A.\NIARCHOS C.\MULLEN T. 290 290 288 288 286
40 89 SEBAB AUTOMOTIVE LTD POMPIDOU X.\RIED Ch.\THYRRING T. 290 289 288 288 285
41 32 BARAZI EPSILON BARAZI J.\VERGERS M.\CUNNINGHAM N. 289 288 288 287 286
42 76 IMSA PERF. MATMUT DUMAS R.\NARAC R.\RICCITELLI L. 288 288 288 287 287
43 77 MULTIMATIC PANOZ M.S. MAXWELL S.\JEANNETTE G.\MILNER T. 288 287 286 286 286
44 90 WHITE LIGHTNING RACING BERGMEISTER J.\KROHN T.\JONSSON N. 287 284 284 283 283
45 85 SPYKER SQUADRON CREVELS D.\DUMBRECK P.\CORONEL T. 286 281 281 281 280
46 93 TEAM TAISAN ADVAN NISHIZAWA K.\YAMAJI S.\COLLIN P. 285 283 283 283 282
47 81 TEAM LNT KIMBER-SMITH T.\DEAN R.\TOMLINSON L. 283 282 280 280 280
48 86 SPYKER SQUADRON BLEEKEMOLEN J.\HEZEMANS M.\KANE J. 283 281 280 279 279
49 73 ICE POL RACING TEAM LAMBERT Y.\LEFORT C.\IANNETTA R. 278 277 275 273 270
50 98 DEL BELLO NOEL BOURDAIS P.\CLOET T.\SHARPE A . 271 267 263 262 262
Races Information Services Sprl Tel/Fax 00 32(0)86/32.17.46 - http://www.ris.be.tf
Imprimé le vendredi 16 juin 2006 Ã* 00:50 Page 1


24 Heures
TOP FIVE SPEED - Warm-Up
# N° ENTRANTS DRIVERS Km/h
1 14 RACING FOR HOLLAND LAMMERS J.\YOONG A.\JOHANSSON S. 331 313 310 305 281
2 9 CREATION AUTOSPORTIF ORTIZ F.\CAMPBELL WALTER J\GABBIANI B. 3 29 325 322 320 318
3 8 AUDI SPORT TEAM JOEST BIELA F.\PIRRO E.\WERNER M. 326 325 324 323 322
4 16 PESCAROLO SPORT MINASSIAN N.\COLLARD E.\COMAS E. 324 323 323 322 320
5 17 PESCAROLO SPORT HELARY E.\MONTAGNY F.\LOEB S. 321 319 318 311 307
6 2 ZYTEK ENGINEERING NIELSEN J.\ANDERSEN P.\ELGAARD C. 319 319 315 314 302
7 19 CHAMBERLAIN SYNERGY EVANS G.\OWEN P.\BERRIDGE B. 317 315 311 311 310
8 12 COURAGE COMPETITION FREI A.\FISKEN G.\HANCOCK S. 315 310 310 308 307
9 13 COURAGE COMPETITION GOUNON JM.\KUROSAWA H.\NAKANO S. 3 13 312 310 308 308
10 7 AUDI SPORT TEAM JOEST CAPELLO R.\KRISTENSEN T.\McNISH A. 311 109 77
11 22 ROLLCENTRE RACING BARBOSA J.\MOSELEY St.\SHORT M. 308 302 300 299 297
12 61 RUSSIAN AGE RACING VANN C.\SMITH N.\SUGDEN T. 307 293 269 248 235
13 39 CHAMBERLAIN SYNERGY AMARAL M.\DE CASTRO M.\HUGHES W. 307 305 305 298 297
14 72 ALPHAND AVENTURES ALPHAND L.\GOUESLARD P.\POLICAND J. 304 296 290 287 285
15 64 CORVETTE RACING GAVIN O.\BERETTA O.\MAGNUSSEN J. 303 300 300 297 295
16 25 RML ERDOS T.\NEWTON M.\WALLACE A. 300 299 294 292 292
17 109 ASTON MARTIN RACING LAMY P.\ORTELLI S.\SARRAZIN S. 300 297 292 291 291
18 5 SWISS SPIRIT PRIMAT H.\FASSLER M.\PETER P. 300 300 299 295 292
19 6 LISTER STORM RACING MOLLER J.\KIESA N.\PICKERING G. 300 299 295 294 293
20 62 RUSSIAN AGE RACING BRABHAM D.\PIQUET N.\GARCIA A. 299 293 292 290 289
21 107 ASTON MARTIN RACING ENGE T.\PICCINI A.\TURNER D. 298 298 293 293 293
22 63 CORVETTE RACING FELLOWS R.\O'CONNELL J.\PAPIS M. 297 296 295 294 294
23 27 MIRACLE MOTORSPORTS MACALUSO J.\LALLY A.\JAMES I. 297 296 295 292 291
24 69 BMS SCUDERIA ITALIA BABINI F.\GOLLIN F.\PESCATORI C 297 292 289 287 285
25 83 SEIKEL MOTORSPORTS FARNBACHER D.\NIELSEN L.\EHRET P. 297 286 285 282 280
26 24 BINNIE MOTORSPORTS BINNIE B.\TIMPANY A.\TERADA Y. 296 294 293 290 268
27 53 JLOC ISAO NORITAKE APICELA M.\YAMANISHI K.\HINOI Y. 296 284 275 272 261
28 33 INTERSPORT RACING FIELD C.\HALLIDAY L.\DAYTON D. 295 294 292 291 291
29 20 PIERRE BRUNEAU ROSTAN M.\MACALLISTER Ch.\PULLAN S 293 293 293 277 257
30 80 FLYING LIZARD MOTORSPORTSvan OVERBEEK J.\NEIMAN S.\LONG P. 293 287 286 286 283
31 67 CONVERS MENX TEAM PERGL R.\KOX P.\VASILIEV A. 292 239 216 194
32 36 PAUL BELMONDO RACING GOSSELIN C-Y.\OJJEH K.\RAGUES P. 291 290 289 275 274
33 66 ACEMCO MOTORSPORTS BORCHELLER T.\MOWLEN J\FITTIPALDI C. 289 287 284 283 279
34 93 TEAM TAISAN ADVAN NISHIZAWA K.\YAMAJI S.\COLLIN P. 288 283 283 282 280
35 50 LARBRE COMPETITION GARDEL G.\BORNHAUSER P.\BLANCHEMAIN J-L2.8 8 286 285 281 276
36 87 SCUDERIA ECOSSE KIRKALDY A.\NIARCHOS C.\MULLEN T. 288 287 286 284 283
37 32 BARAZI EPSILON BARAZI J.\VERGERS M.\CUNNINGHAM N. 286 283 283 277 276
38 30 WELTER GERARD BRICHE J.\HAUCHARD F.\ROUSSEL P. 285 262 244 220 196
39 35 G-FORCE RACING LEROCH J-F.\MORRIS E.\HAHN F. 285 283 283 282 277
40 81 TEAM LNT KIMBER-SMITH T.\DEAN R.\TOMLINSON L. 283 282 281 281 280
41 90 WHITE LIGHTNING RACING BERGMEISTER J.\KROHN T.\JONSSON N. 283 283 278 278 263
42 86 SPYKER SQUADRON BLEEKEMOLEN J.\HEZEMANS M.\KANE J. 282 277 275 273 272
43 37 PAUL BELMONDO RACING BOUVET JB.\ANDRE D.\CLAIRAY Y. 282 187 167
44 98 DEL BELLO NOEL BOURDAIS P.\CLOET T.\SHARPE A . 279 271 268 260 253
45 77 MULTIMATIC PANOZ M.S. MAXWELL S.\JEANNETTE G.\MILNER T. 279 274 259 257 250
46 85 SPYKER SQUADRON CREVELS D.\DUMBRECK P.\CORONEL T. 276 274 268 267 259
47 91 T2M MOTORSPORT YAMAGISHI Y.\de FOURNOUX J.\KONOPKA M. 2 7 4 256 229 227 221
48 76 IMSA PERF. MATMUT DUMAS R.\NARAC R.\RICCITELLI L. 272 271 270 269 266
49 73 ICE POL RACING TEAM LAMBERT Y.\LEFORT C.\IANNETTA R. 261 250 242 196 192

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thanks very much mulsanne mike! great data you have there. i also like your musannescorner.com waiting for the latest updates!

[sssssssss]

so the r10 only reached 326 km/h and was that fast in 2006 (3:30.466)... that means it went on truly high downforce... i'm surprised to see that there were cars exceeding the r10's top speeds...i guess audi were a lot more relaxed in 2006 than in 2007, when the competition of peugeot made them go faster, as no other car in the field went as fast as audi did (339 km/h) except for peugeot's 339 km/h. i remember the r8 went 330 km/h in 2002... some say the r8 even reached 337 km/h on the mulsanne-indianapolis sector... but true, in its first year, 2000, as 2006 would be for the r10, the r8 only reached 325 km/h...

although the lap times are just about the same as always, i kinda feel nostalgic about the days of the toyota gt-one (352 km/h in practice 1999), audi r8c (349 km/h) and r8r (335 km/h), mercedes clr (349 km/h)... that 1999 race was great in that respect.

[Purist]

Is the speed trap before the first chicane on the Mulsanne or before the kink leading to Indianapolis? I'd suspect, the latter location might deliver higher numbers, though obviously, I can't be sure of that right now.

[sssssssss]

as far as i know the trap is traditionally set at the end of the first part of the mulsanne straight. and if last years, we might have been in doubt wether the mulsanne-indianapolis section is faster than that or not, i think from 2007 on its obvious again that the first part of the mulsanne is the fastest part of the course, as tetre rouge was heavily modified.

also, i think (but i might be wrong) that the different speeds for each car are caught at different points of the track. if anybody has a more determined position concerning that, i'd be glad to see it i think it's mulsanne pt.1, mulsanne pt.2, mulsanne pt.3, mulsanne-indianapolis and the last speed would probably be just before entering the porsche curves.

[sssssssss]

and if the second speed is from just before the 2nd mulsanne chicane, it's obvious that the audis and the peugeots could have gone quicker than 339 km/h, because even the previous years, the difference between the first part of the mulsanne and the second was more than 1 km/h (), and now it'd be even a greater difference as, like we mentioned already, tetre rouge was modified to provide more speed on mulsanne pt.1. so if the audi went 338 km/h on the second part of the mulsanne, i think it's obvious it could have gone quicker than 339 km/h on the first. of course, if it isn't restricted to about 340 km/h... and i doubt it is.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by sssssssss

the peugeot 905 went 351 km/h on the mulsanne straight in 1992 in practice, but seemingley under 335 km/h in the race (i'm not sure about this second fact). in 1993 it reached 346 km/h in the race, dk about practice...

under 335kmph in the race because the 1992 lemans was afflicted with heavy rain and for the entire race the track was wet, this affected the cornering speeds and straight line speed's significantly.