Classic Cars

[Dex]

On the subject of what makes a classic...

Age on it's own doesn't tell the full story - but it's a good start - a modern car can be a "modern classic" or a "future classic". The example with the minis is interesting - early minis are classic cars, one that's only a few years old is a classic design, but in my eyes can't be a classic car (the same applies with morgans)

I think the point about "achieving something" is good - whether it's a technological innovation, or just a real shift in the manufacturer's path. My classic is a Droopsnoot Firenza - which was intended to be a mainstream production car - I think it qualifies as a classic not on the grounds of rarity and age, but because it marked a shift from vauxhall's quite ordinary competent family saloons to something a bit more exciting. The designer then went on to produce the Manta and Calibra (my shopping car) which was another car that stood out amongst Vauxhall's range as something a bit different and special.

And yes I know the Firenza shares some of it's underpinnings with the Viva, as the Calibra shares plenty with the cavalier!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by johnh875

There was a famous book and movie set at Hanging Rock some may know of.

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Picnic at Hanging Rock Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[johnh875]

Yes that's the one Peter, I think it is a reasonably well-known film - it is hard to gauge these things from the perspective of other countries. It was made in 1975, directed by Peter Weir who also did The Truman Show, Dead Poet's Society, The Year of Living Dangerously, Gallipoli and also The Cars That Ate Paris - you really know your films if you've heard of this one, I actually saw it on tv once.

The film is based on a book by Joan Lindsay, and set in 1900. The plot is simple, a group of school girls go on a picnic at Hanging Rock (yes, really) and disappear. Although it is a novel, there was always the rumour that it really happened, which added to to the aura & mystery of the film.

The actual place is quite interesting too. http://www.hangingrock.info It is "a rare volcanic formation of solvsbergite situated in the Hesket plains". It is like a hill of rock, with crevices everywhere, and because it is surrounded by trees and it is always very quiet there is a sense of isolation.

Photos to come from the car show (eventually)

[Peter Mallett]

The cars that ate Paris (Texas) had a VW Beetle with spikes all over it. Not entirely off topic then.

[johnh875]

That's the one. Very wierd movie from what I remember...

(Hmm, was going to link a photo but then I remembered about the copyright rules John, I'm learning slowly!)

[John Turner]

Sorry John, a bit late responding to this. No problem in posting a link to a photo if it's on topic. You just can't move the photo here!

This forum really isn't self sustaining is it? There are just not enough classic car fanatics on here, I guess. I'll have one more crack at fizzing it up before the racing season really gets under way, but then we'll have to leave it to its own devices!

[johnh875]

That's what I meant ("moving" photo with img tags, didn't think of the url tags)

Could be like me & just busy. There were some nice cars down at the Philip Island historic races in the carpark as well as on the track, still haven't got photos online (or films processed) though. A very nice Lambo Miura, and almost complete range of Bolwell cars - working backwards (to jog memory) Nagari coupe & convertible, Mk7, SR6 race car (one off), Mk5 and a few Mk4s. There was also a Rochedale Olympic believe it or not! For sale too.

[johnh875]

I've finally started a thread with some of the cars from the Philip Island races - a thread for cars in the carpark in this section and cars on the track in the Historic Racing Today section of the forums.

As a preview, and because I mentioned it above and have not included it in either thread, here is the Bolwell SR6 race car which was actually in the carpark in the Bolwell club's display.


While I'm on a roll, also a shot of the 1971 Tyrrell F1 car in the pits...


... and the Shannons Insurance Goggomobil Dart

[Mathias]

Hum. On the topic of what makes a classic car, my feeling is that one man's meat is another man's poison. The only reliable definition is an objective one based on (a) age and (2) whether there are any left, otherwise you fall into the trap of being subjective, or even snobbish.

Classic car ownership, let's face it, is a (largely) male mid-life crisis thing. Hence, classics are defined by a generation about 25 years after the fact looking back and thinking "yeah, I thought that was a great car when I was a kid".

I was quite partial to the Allegro when I was a kid. It was the first car I remember coming out as a new model - yes, that's all it took. I had a friend whose parents had the estate version, and I liked the way the rear of the car flicked up slightly in what I now think of as an ironic mockery of a rear spoiler. If I see an Allegro (estate or saloon) on the streets today, cared-for or beaten up, as far as I'm concerned, it's a classic.

I had another friend who had a Cortina estate that we always got ferried around to football matches in the boot of. Can't say I have the same feelings for the Cortina (apart from the Lotus-tuned version of the earlier model, of course), but I know people who do, so who am I to say that it's not a classic?

Perhaps what really defines a classic is whether, after a set time period, say 25 years, the car generates sufficient interest still for there to be sufficient critical mass for an owner's club to be born.

[Adam43]

I'm not sure popularity should be a criterion for "classic" status.

[John Turner]

I think it is important that we retain examples of old cars regardless of status, but I agree, Adam, that this does not make them classic. Collectable yes, meriting preservation, possibly yes, especially if you want to recapture your youth, but Classic, no! We constantly devalue words by broadening their meaning, but I struggle with the concept that any car becomes a classic, merely because it has become old. In car terms, 'classic' is almost indefinable, but design, appearance and build quality are surely some of the constituent elements.

[Mathias]

Hmmm..., at the risk of a slap, if we can't define "classic" how can we devalue its meaning?

[John Turner]

No slap, and clever thinking, but actually, I think you do really know what I mean, unless you really think that all old cars whatever the make are 'classic' merely because they are old.

[Mathias]

Yes, I think there is a difference between merely an "old" car and a "classic". The trouble is, I struggle to think of a car from, say, the 80s, that I can't imagine somebody describing as a classic - there being that irritating little niggly subjective element. Plus, different cars may be seen as being a classic for different reasons.

The VW Beetle is a classic for a number of reasons - it was a design innovation, it was deliberately made for the masses, it became an icon for people with a certain lifestyle, etc. But that makes it no more of a classic than a car that was only a design innovation. Or does it?

I just don't know!

At the end of the day, though, surely if a car is advertised for sale in "Practical Classics", it must be a classic? Otherwise the mag needs to call itself "Practical Classics including Old Car"

Mind you, I have to say that there's rarely anything practical about classics...

[strider]

Interesting discussion.

I have an '86 Audi ur quattro tucked away around round the back here. Mechanically it's sound as a bell, but the bodywork could do with some TLC.

Now to me that's a classic, even though it's not 25 years old yet, because of the iconic nature of the car and the importance it had in the history of the motor car. Anyone agree, or am I just kidding myself?

[John Turner]

Yep, definitely a classic! As I said, age shouldn't be the defining criteria.

[strider]

Excellent, thank you! I shall treat it with more respect now and hopefully give it some of that TLC it needs.

[johnh875]

Definitely a classic, one might make a comparison with a Mk2 Jag (3.8 if it is a turbo!). I have a couple of old classic car mags from the 70s (UK mags, not sure if there were any out here then!), and they are full of "classic" cars such as big Healeys, some of the feature cars were not even 10yo at that time

[muggle not]

I am just a little confused regarding the definition of classic. How would you define a 1955 or 1956 Ford Thunderbird......a Classic or just an old car.

[John Turner]

I think that we have agreed that defining what constitutes a classic is a very difficult task but a T'Bird is surely regarded as a classic, isn't it, especially in its home country?

[johnh875]

I would have thought a '55 T-Bird would be easy, a '75 or '85 perhaps less so! Just wait until they are nearly all gone, they will be then (seems to be the way it works)

[GORDON STREETER]

Its a good thing that classic cars are subjective otherwise all the odball dogs would have gone to the scrap heap. Think also of all the classic saloons like MG ZAs and ZBs that were the mainstay of Stock car racing in the 60s and early 70s, that must have got rid of loads ! I had the use of one a while back and I found it to be a very practical good handling car with no problems at all. Also it attracted attention when in traffic. (after all whose going to say look there's a polo! )
Looking to the future I personally can't see something like a Peugeot 205 owners club in 30 years time, but somebody 40 years younger than me might !

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Its a good thing that classic cars are subjective otherwise all the odball dogs would have gone to the scrap heap. Think also of all the classic saloons like MG ZAs and ZBs that were the mainstay of Stock car racing in the 60s and early 70s, that must have got rid of loads ! I had the use of one a while back and I found it to be a very practical good handling car with no problems at all. Also it attracted attention when in traffic. (after all whose going to say look there's a polo! )

My grandad had one of those!

Good point Gordon, one of those car built as a "sports saloon" but actually more like a mobile brick outhouse!

Wanna race one?

[John Turner]

My Dad had a ZB; great car. Always one of my favourites and prettier than so much other stuff around then, and certainly nicer than its Farina styled replacement. Actually, I think sports saloon wasn't a bad description, again compared with most other saloons at the time. It would do 85mph when other saloons in that class were struggling to hit 75. Don't forget, it was only a 1.5 litre engine hauling it around. However, it has to be said that the similarly engined Riley 1.5 was a bit quicker because it was a bit lighter. Nothing like as pretty though. Anyway, despite what the MG purists at the time felt the ZAs & ZBs are definitely classics in my book. A good mod. on these, I believe, is to upgrade to an MGB engine as it's the same block.

[Peter Mallett]

Yep the 1800 B series slots straight in.