Who's the greatest F1 driver EVER?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Clark.

Should have been champ every year from 1962 to 1968 - and could well have been all the way to 1974 and beyond.

Well OTT, I'd say. Anyway, if he had won as many as that, he would have been looked upon in some quarters, the same way that Michael was up until this season, for having won everything, broken all the records and allegedly making everything boring and predictable. I doubt if we would look at Clark in the same light, had he been that dominant.

[youngoldy]

Right, I started the thread, so I say who is the greatest,

The legendary Senna

End of.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Mattracer

Might be better to group your favourites or accepted standouts in catgegories because across the board comparisons are far too controversial and practically impossible to defend outside of favouritism.

Brilliance types- Senna (though also in the thinker ranks of course), Gilles, Clark

Thinker types, Prost, Lauda, Piquet, Schumacher, Stewart, Fangio, G Hill

Flamboyant, brave/courage types- Mansell, Rosberg, Alesi, Hakkinen

I like this approach, although I would replace the word 'Brilliance' with 'Natural' and then maybe add Moss (although he, too, was a thinker) and Peterson (but he was also flamboyant, as indeed was Gilles) to that list. Jim Clark was arguably the greatest natural driver, but Kimi Raikkonen is displaying signs that he may be the first genuine match for Clark in this area.

[Louis B.]

As much as I don't like the guy, I must say: Michael Schumacher To me, he is the Lance Armstrong of his sport and I don't recall anyone else as commited to winning in his sport.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by youngoldy

Right, I started the thread, so I say who is the greatest,

The legendary Senna

End of.

Your main problem here is that you started the thread on a discussion forum

That Senna chap is certainly a contender though.

[John Turner]

Louis, he must be one of the greatest, very close to the top wrung and statistically, he most certainly is THE greatest, and I can say it without giving myself a headache, although I also understand your pain!!

[Louis B.]

May I change my mind? The question being who is/was the "greatest", my vote should have rather gone to the best ever who won without ever "cheating", etc. This disqualifies MS, Senna & Prost (voluntarily taking each other out). I cannot go for Mansell and I don't know the Clark, Moss, Fangio, etc. Difficult choice then :

Let's put analysis, science & objectivty aside. My vote goes to JV.

[garcon]

I never saw Fangio, or Clark, and I haven't seen that much footage of them, so although they must both rank somewhere near that top wrung, I can't include them.

The best ever of anything always boils down to opinion, in part because statistics across different eras are next to meaningless... it's impossible to compare Clark and Schumacher (for example) objectively.

Ayrton Senna had something that very few other drivers ever had, an incredible natural talent that he took further than any other. He was and always will be unique.

But for me the greatest is Michael Schumacher. Utterly professional in everything he does, a team builder, meticulously prepared, but also a supremely skilled (and incredibly quick) driver who can keep a car on the very knife-edge limit of its performance like no-one else. On top of that, and vital to his success, he has the psychology of an outright winner, who gets a kick out of not just winning but winning again and again and again...

[ASCII Man]

Deletraz DELETRAZ!! °jumps around waving arms frantically°

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Well OTT, I'd say.

Why "well" OTT? He was robbed by engine failure in '62 and '64 (the latter on the last lap), in '66 and '67 he was the fastest driver but plagued by a problem engine, in '68 he won the first race going away and would probably have put Hill in the shade. Lotus remained the best or close to the best car until the mid-70s. I don't think it's unfeasible. Unless he was ready to retire, which some suggest he may have been.

[LampCord]

Schumacher.

Clearly.

[NWFF 37]

Would Michael have still broken all these records if he was racing in a grid full of world champions and race winners? Or had he not had inferior team mates, either not as talented or contracted to move over??

I dont know much about F1 in the 50s, 60s and 70s but there was many different race winners and champions all racing at the same stage in their career. Same with the 80s prost, senna, mansell, piquet etc all had tough opponents and sometimes equally as tough team mates.

If there was a poll for the luckiest F1 driver then MS is definatley the man.

However i personally believe he is one of the greatest talents, but the best judges would be people who have been in F1 or team principles whove had many drivers from different decades.

The other thing with the modern era is that a lot of overtaking is done in the pits. Nigel Mansell had to pass senna in hungary in an inferior car, today you would just adjust the strategy. Raikkonen drove a very good race at a very hot pace in Monza, but how many front running cars did he pass on the track?

[Kicking-back]

Michael Schumacher is very good - but the reliability of cars now is better than ever (everyone finishing at Monza for example).

If Prost or Senna or Lauda had had cars as reliable as the recent Ferraris their statistics would be even more impressive than they are already.

[ASCII Man]

Seriously now, I consider Senna the greatest of all time, on par with Fangio IMO.

[CobraSVT]

1: Alain Prost
2: Gilles Villeneuve
3: Jacques Villeneuve (Could of been better but has made some wrong decisions.. (COUGH BAR COUGH).
4: Ayrton Senna... i dont know enough about this driver, but the Senna - Prost duels were truly amazing.


Jacques.. Jacques.. Jacques..
Imagine if he had chosen Ferrari instead of Williams.. Where would JV be today.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by NWFF 37

Raikkonen drove a very good race at a very hot pace in Monza, but how many front running cars did he pass on the track?

umm, the championship leader, Alonso...

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by CobraSVT

1: Alain Prost
2: Gilles Villeneuve
3: Jacques Villeneuve (Could of been better but has made some wrong decisions.. (COUGH BAR COUGH).
4: Ayrton Senna... i dont know enough about this driver, but the Senna - Prost duels were truly amazing.


Jacques.. Jacques.. Jacques..
Imagine if he had chosen Ferrari instead of Williams.. Where would JV be today.

Slight French-speaking bias in your choice perhaps?

If JV had chosen Ferrari, and if Ferrari had wanted him, JV today would probably be commentating on kart races in Alaska, cos he for sure would not have won the WDC in '97, if at all

[CobraSVT]

Originally Posted by Andydickens

Slight French-speaking bias in your choice perhaps?

If JV had chosen Ferrari, and if Ferrari had wanted him, JV today would probably be commentating on kart races in Alaska, cos he for sure would not have won the WDC in '97, if at all

Hah I knew someone would bring up the french thing
Well I'm not gonna lie, I read up on my frenchies, so I know most about them, I'm not gonna say Senna is the best, because I dont know enough about him to state that.
My list is a personal one, and those 3 drivers are the ones I know best
And they are damn good lol.

Ferrari did want JV, he had the choice between Ferrari and Williams, short term, it was the right decision, but long term?
I think he would of won the 97 WDC. And then probobly have the same or even more success than Michael Shumacher, but that's just my opinion.
Maybe Ferrari would of gotten Shumacher alonside Villeneuve, and you would of had one HELL of a duel there my friend. Maybe something a la Senna-Prost..
but .. oh well we can't change the past

[markysjag]

I would have to say me. Every time I see a race I Know I could do better. How hard could it be.

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by markysjag

I would have to say me. Every time I see a race I Know I could do better. How hard could it be.

Exactly. All they do is sit there, turning a steering wheel and pushing a couple of pedals. I must be a lot better than them, because I have learned to manage 3 pedals and a gearstick in my car, not just 2 pedals and a few buttons.

[Chappelli]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. At the end of the day every generation has had things that've made it harder or easier to win...

The yardstick is Schumacher, great because he's made the right decisions, great because he's kept himself in a position where he has a team behind him and great because he's won the championships.

As for JV, that's just hilarious...What about Phil Hill?? I read an interesting article about a BAR driver, whom when he first joined the team he went to Japan and visted the Honda guys, did the meet and greet, kissed babies, shook hands, that sort of thing. One of the Japanese engineers commented that the team's other driver had never once visited them. Greatness, far from it.

[tuga11]

Ayrton Senna succeded in a era of great drivers/world champions(Prost,Piquet,Mansell)
Schumacher succeded in a era of mediocre drivers/world champions(Hill,Hakkinen,villeneuve)

veredict: Senna is a true champ, best of all time
Schumi is a champ, but champ against who????

[SpawnyWhippet]

Originally Posted by tuga11

Ayrton Senna succeded in a era of great drivers/world champions(Prost,Piquet,Mansell)
Schumacher succeded in a era of mediocre drivers/world champions(Hill,Hakkinen,villeneuve)

veredict: Senna is a true champ, best of all time
Schumi is a champ, but champ against who????

In 1994, Schumacher in the Benetton was beating Senna in the Williams in every race until the tragedy at Imola. I don't believe that the Benetton was any better than the Williams; they won 7 or 8 races each throughout the season (which may actually indicate that the Williams was slightly better, as they lost their best driver at San Marino and still took so many wins).
Schumacher has also beaten Hakkinen, Berger, Mansell, Prost, Patrese and Katayama ( ) to name but a few

I personally believe that Senna was more talented than MS, but MS put in a lot more preparation and was more 'complete' than Senna.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by tuga11

Schumacher succeded in a era of mediocre drivers/world champions(Hill,Hakkinen,villeneuve)

Hakkinen? Mediocre?

I think not!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Why "well" OTT? He was robbed by engine failure in '62 and '64 (the latter on the last lap), in '66 and '67 he was the fastest driver but plagued by a problem engine, in '68 he won the first race going away and would probably have put Hill in the shade. Lotus remained the best or close to the best car until the mid-70s. I don't think it's unfeasible. Unless he was ready to retire, which some suggest he may have been.

Yes, but:-
1) Being robbed by engine failure is part of the scenario and includes other WDCs - quite possibly Kimi being one, this year.
2) Graham Hill deserved the 1962 title for BRM, just as much as Clark did.
3} Clark, tragically died in the early part of the season so, anything after that is irrelevant, and that argument could apply to other drivers before and after (e.g. Ascari, Von Trips, Rindt and Senna).
4} After 1968, Rindt and Stewart would have influenced the outcome, particularly the latter, who's driving was pretty phenomenal from 1968 onwards. He was successor to Clark's crown and there is a very good chance he would have taken it even with Clark's continued presence because that is usually what happens - one great has to pass the baton to the next whether it is because the former has retired, died, or stayed around to be beaten.
5) As you say, he would probably have retired and gone back to his beloved farm in Scotland long before 1974.

So, I repeat well, OTT