GARRA Daytona Prototypes

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

We ACO/ALMS sportscar fans realize this isn't as popular as NASCAR or F1, but we don't get bent out of shape when that is suggested... well except this silly F1 thread here.

I realise that sportscar racing will never be as popular as F1, a 90 minute race has far more mass appeal than a 6/12/24 hour race.

I do not think that my F1 thread is silly in any way. As JAG pointed out in that thread F1 has a history of destroying championships that threaten it. The WTCC of the late 80s was killed off, Group C was got rid of, and the once great WRC has been turned into such a farce that next year its calendar won't include the Monte Carlo Rally, its signature event. Thankfully the ACO has little to do with the FIA nowadays.

suicideking: You are A.C Guillermo AICMFP

ACO sportscar racing dying in America? Don't think so, the ALMS TV ratings and attendances have been increasing despite the rough ride they get on TV deals thanks to the machinations of Nascar.

The ALMS currently has Audi, Acura, Porsche, Mazda, Corvette, Dodge, Ferrari, Panoz and more (So many I can't remember them all! )

I don't hate GARRA, the only event it has that I pay any real attention to is the Daytona 24 which is in effect the new IROC (where else could you see Darren Turner chasing down Jimmie Johnson?). I think its a shame that great events such as the Daytona 24, the Paul Revere 250 and the Six Hours at the Glen have been taken away from proper sportscars.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

One or two makes dominate? I believe you have the same scenario in Grand-Am: Pontiac-Riley or Lexus-Riley...

Winners this year: Lexus Riley, Pontiac Riley, BMW Riley
Podiums for: Porsche Crawford, Porsche Riley, Pontiac Lola
Top 5s for Ford Rileys, Ford Dallaras and all of the above.
Pole Positions for: Ford Riley, Porsche Riley, Lexus Riley, Porsche Riley, Pontiac Riley.

So while the Riley is still the dominant chassis, there's a great variety on the engine side, especially with Ford upping their stakes this year and being commited to their teams for the next three years.

And Dallara and Lola should win races before long. These cars are still very early in their developement, but especially the Dallara has shown great performances already, just lacking reliability and luck at the moment.

The ALMS currently has Audi, Acura, Porsche, Mazda, Corvette, Dodge, Ferrari, Panoz and more

Grand Am has Porsche(both classes), Pontiac(both classes), Lexus, BMW( both classes), Ford(both classes), Mazda, Ferrari, Corvette and soon maybe Dodge.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

That would be like letting Formula Atlantics run against IRL cars, it just wouldn't be competitive or fair.

When one looks at tracks with both race, Mid-Ohio and Leguna Seca the times are not that far off. A few rule changes for the DPs, a bit more hp and carbon carbon brakes and the two LMP2 and DPs would close.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by TheSuicideKing

Actually, you'll find you're wrong, if you ever attended a GARRA race. You'll find many GARRA fans don't even bother with message boards because they're insulted and shouted down on Pro-ACO boards like this one, and allow that type of behavior.

I'm wrong? Who cares about message board attendance, I'm talking at track attendance. The race at Watkins Glen had about a third of the attendance the SVRA race does in September. Regularly the series doesn't attract flies.

Check the ALMS official board and the GARRA official board. Which board has more thread bashing the other series and other series' cars? Then you'll see who has the real inferiority complex. Face it, ACO racing is dying in this country. Save for a few rich boys with a few bucks to waste in a year buying a Zytek or a 3 year old Courage, what does the ALMS have going for it? Shaw? Panhard? The BMW prototype? Oh yeah, next year; it'll be here next year. I've been hearing next year for the past 5 years. GARRA never promises but they deliver. Scott Atherton could take a major cue from Edmondson in that department.

Do not dare to be so ignorant and think you speak for "many" sportscar fans, Brett.

ACO racing is dying in North America? Of course that is why there has been nearly a 50% increase in entrants from two years ago, to the end of this year, a steady increase in manufacturer interest and participation and increased fan attendance.

I'm not sure what the references to Shaw, Panhard or the BMW prototype are about, or what relevance they have. Perhaps you can update us on the status of the Panhard project?

I don't speak for all sportscar fans, though from what I've seen and read, my opinion appears to be shared by many others.

I wouldn't categorize those who dislike Grand Am as having inferiority complexes, as much as having genuine reasons to dislike the series.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

When one looks at tracks with both race, Mid-Ohio and Leguna Seca the times are not that far off. A few rule changes for the DPs, a bit more hp and carbon carbon brakes and the two LMP2 and DPs would close.

Mid Ohio - LMP2 1.10.113 (fastest race lap 2007)
Mid Ohio - DP 1.18.483 (fastest race lap 2007)

Laguna - LMP2 1.10.528 (qualifying - 2007)
Laguna - DP 1:19.843 (qualifying - 2008)

These times aren't that far off?

You really believe that an ~ 12% difference in speed is going to be erased by "a few" rule changes, a bit more hp and some carbon brakes?

[mattcat]

I like both series, ACO sanctioned or GARRA. I am tired of all of these threads bashing GARRA. They both have their own merits, and while I PREFER ACO style sports cars racing, I am thankful that there are two series in North America that allow me to attend races and see MOTOR SPORT COMPETITION. Who cares if the cars are very similar and a little slower? Point is it's man and machine, out on the track competing against one another to push the limits of the car's available speed. Isn't that what motor sport is all about? If you don't like GARRA, don't watch it. No one is holding a gun to your head.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Mid Ohio - LMP2 1.10.113 (fastest race lap 2007)
Mid Ohio - DP 1.18.483 (fastest race lap 2007)

Laguna - LMP2 1.10.528 (qualifying - 2007)
Laguna - DP 1:19.843 (qualifying - 2008)

These times aren't that far off?

You really believe that an ~ 12% difference in speed is going to be erased by "a few" rule changes, a bit more hp and some carbon brakes?

If it gets more competitors and teams.

Put the Porsche Spyder engine in the Brumos runs, Take the air restrictors out of the Pontiac engines, Put on some real tires, not the stock Pirreli slicks, and carbon brakes. Could get teh DPs there.

But we all know that will NEVER HAPPEN.

GA is great racing as it is. Both GA and ALMS have their place in sports car racing

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Put the Porsche Spyder engine in the Brumos

Ha! Brumos claims 600hp for their current engine and while that may be a little exagerated around 550 ponies in the back of that Riley wouldn't surprise me. The lack of power is not what's slowing the DPs down, it's the weight or to be precise: the power to weight ratio. More power would help, but I don't think the Spyder engine would mean that much more power. They should slap some turbos on it^^

GA is great racing as it is. Both GA and ALMS have their place in sports car racing

Amen.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Mid Ohio - LMP2 1.10.113 (fastest race lap 2007)
Mid Ohio - DP 1.18.483 (fastest race lap 2007)

Laguna - LMP2 1.10.528 (qualifying - 2007)
Laguna - DP 1:19.843 (qualifying - 2008)

These times aren't that far off?

You really believe that an ~ 12% difference in speed is going to be erased by "a few" rule changes, a bit more hp and some carbon brakes?

Agreed 100%. DPs would be more competitive in GT2.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

If it gets more competitors and teams.

Put the Porsche Spyder engine in the Brumos runs, Take the air restrictors out of the Pontiac engines, Put on some real tires, not the stock Pirreli slicks, and carbon brakes. Could get teh DPs there.

But we all know that will NEVER HAPPEN.

GA is great racing as it is. Both GA and ALMS have their place in sports car racing

I am afraid if they took any restrictors out of the Pontrolet engines, even with an 11:1 cr (IIRC) the hp increase could wreak havoc.
The IMSA cars would still rely on cornering speed but the GARRA cars would be good old fashioned squirt and brake, very quick and fast on the straights but heavy breaking into the corners.
The GARRA cars would put on a better show.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

If it gets more competitors and teams.

Put the Porsche Spyder engine in the Brumos runs, Take the air restrictors out of the Pontiac engines, Put on some real tires, not the stock Pirreli slicks, and carbon brakes. Could get teh DPs there.

The changes you suggest wouldn't get you close to the top tier... maybe to a Radical, or a BK Mazda on a lucky day. From there, you'd basically have to redesign the car to close the gap.

The type of changes and costs associated with them, to get DP's to compete with LMP2's, would be better spent on simply getting a LMP2.

Besides who would bother, when they have a perfectly acceptable place to run their cars now?

[TWK]

Here's a combined grid of the three principle series at Mid-Ohio last year...the top cars of each compiled together.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...id=72&Itemid=1

[TWK]

And as long as you're arguing about "close racing," perhaps this, a side-by-side statistical abstract of every Grand Am and every ALMS in 2007, will help.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...=241&Itemid=54

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The type of changes and costs associated with them, to get DP's to compete with LMP2's, would be better spent on simply getting a LMP2.

Besides who would bother, when they have a perfectly acceptable place to run their cars now?

The sponsors Market might want a team to move to ALMS or just add a ALMS team. Two difference spectator demographics that watch each series.

It was all speculation. Yes both series are great to watch

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by TWK

Here's a combined grid of the three principle series at Mid-Ohio last year...the top cars of each compiled together.

http://lastturnclub.com/index.php?op...id=72&Itemid=1

Good stuff Tom Thanks

Looking at the slower GARR times, 2:18, heck wonder what I could to knock 12 secs of my best time? :lol:

[AU N EGL]

the best things I like about GARR are the number of teams, the close racing, in all parts of the pack. There is great close racing up front, or in the middle of the pack.

Those are the two things I like about GARR.

What do other ppl like about GARR??

[chocmonster7]

All the stuff you've mentioned, also the accessibility of everyone to the fans on race weekends. We know of some crews/drivers, etc. that are going to attend a barbecue at Mid Ohio this weekend which has been arranged by fans.

Like many people I manage to accept what each series is on its own merits which allows me to enjoy them in their own way. I've never understood the need for the "us vs them" mentality.

[mattcat]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

What do other ppl like about GARR??

I like that (much like ALMS) I can walk into the paddock during the race weekend, see the cars being worked on, and chat with the drivers and crew. This year at the Rolex 24 and the Homestead race, I spent a good amount of time in the paddock, and even walked into the garages before and after the race, while the crews were performing work on the race cars. I think that this is something that we as sports car racing fans take for granted. It is not something which is available in many other forms of motorsport. F1 is a circus, NASCAR won't let you in the garages unless you stumble across VIP passes or cough up a pretty penny for it, IRL is pretty good about it but you don't get the drivers walking around and chatting like you do with sports car drivers. We should be thankful that both the ACO style series and GARRA allow this type of fan interaction, and stop bickering because both series provide good on track competition and a pleasant fan environment. I hope for the continued growth of both entities.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Good stuff Tom Thanks

Looking at the slower GARR times, 2:18, heck wonder what I could to knock 12 secs of my best time? :lol:

Buy a Ferrari F430 GTC or a DP? Personally I'd go for the GT2 car but heh, whatever floats your boat.

What do I like about GARRA? A couple of the tracks (VIR, Mont Tremblant, the Glen) and some great pilots. The close racing is more of a function of cautions than series, we have seen that in both major North American sportscar championships. What I don't like about GARRA? Too much avoidable contact, too many contrived cautions, boring cars.

I have never been to a GARRA race in person so I can't comment on the relative accessibility of drivers and teams except to say that I can't imagine that it can be much better than the ALMS. This accessibility is a function of sportscar racing on this continent in general.

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by deggis

No. (And thank god for that).

ahahahaha!!!

Amen to that.

American mistake, and they can keep 'em

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

What do other ppl like about GARR??

As mentioned before: The close racing and the big fields. Other than that the fact that they had closed cars before the rest.
I also like the idea of the DP as a -from what I read - hard to drive competition machine that highlights the performance of the driver; it may not be classical sportscar racing, but it's pretty cool nonetheless.

And I like the longevity of the cars in the series, as it allows smaller less funded teams to buy a car that they can race for quite a number of years. Riley Mk.XI #001 is (admittedly with a body-upgrade for this year) still sucessfully racing in the series.

[cmk]

Closed cars 'before the rest'? Well, I guess that is true if by car you mean prototype, and you use the word prototype in a strict sense rather than in a high-performance sense. Otherwise, FIA and ACO sportscar rules had closed GT cars during the entirety of Grand Am's existence and they are higher-tech and higher-performance than DPs, too.

I don't buy that there is anything particularly more 'hard to drive' about the DPs than some other prototypes in competition now. The Porsche RS Spyder is pretty renowned as very challenging to be driven at the limit, for instance, and the best pilots are definitely highlighted in it.

I agree with you on the chassis longevity issue. There is no denying that to be competitive in FIA or ACO series, you generally need to run a chassis, if not model, that is 3 or fewer years old. However, I guess that speaks to one of the biggest divides between target markets. - ACO rules in particular, will inevitably appeal more to the tech geek side of the fanbase than GARRA's will. That's just different strokes for different folks.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by cmk

I don't buy that there is anything particularly more 'hard to drive' about the DPs than some other prototypes in competition now. The Porsche RS Spyder is pretty renowned as very challenging to be driven at the limit, for instance, and the best pilots are definitely highlighted in it.

Well, Gabriele Gardel - a former FIA GT champion - just headed back to Europe after an unsucessfull four races in the Doran Dallara. One could of course blame the team, but the sister car had some impressive runs and Doran Racing is not a bad operation...

[KSR88]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

the best things I like about GARR are the number of teams, the close racing, in all parts of the pack. There is great close racing up front, or in the middle of the pack.

Those are the two things I like about GARR.

What do other ppl like about GARR??

I like that there are virtually no fans at a Rolex Race--it is like a private race-just for me. I also like when I go to my favorite corner to take a picture there aren't scads of protographers in the way.
I think I deserve a Rolex for going.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, Gabriele Gardel - a former FIA GT champion - just headed back to Europe after an unsucessfull four races in the Doran Dallara. One could of course blame the team, but the sister car had some impressive runs and Doran Racing is not a bad operation...

Gardel would be even further off the pace in an RS Spyder though, so I don't see the point being made here, except that gentleman drivers are slow. Gardel was FIA-GT champion because he put in some clutch steady, even fast drives the odd time under tough conditions, but mostly because he was paired with Pedro Lamy and Lamy was a star in that Prodrive 550.