Lola T70 Mk3B Coupe - SL73/148

[Tomas Karlsson]

According to Picko Troberg, he has kept the remains of the first 148. I don't think anyone would even try to rebuild that, if you have seen the pictures from the crash at Nürburgring. Not in those days anyway.
Picko bought a new car, but he dosen't seem to remember that it had the same chassis number. The second car was rolled by Peterson at Österreichring.
Both cars were yellow and green.

[John Turner]

Tomas, very warm welcome to 10-Tenths. That Picko Troberg still has the remains of the original 148 is not, under the circumstances, a big surprise, and that also allows us to accept that a new '148' was delivered to Troberg in time for him to compete at Anderstorp on 6 July,1969! Since it was this second car that Peterson wrote off at Zeltweg (Osterreichring), and Barrie has stated that the only parts of that car which were fitted to his '148' were the gearbox and engine, can we agree that in fact the existing car is actually the 3rd carrying this number, the previous two having been written off?

The only question mark here appears to be that Troberg does not recall that his replacement car was also numbered 148; on the other hand, unless there are documents of delivery that recorded the chassis number, or Lola records are clear, we may simply have to accept that it is most likely that the second car was indeed allocated the no 148 from the written off car.

[Tomas Karlsson]

In his biography Picko wrote that he thought it was strange that there was an 148 out there, since he had the remains at home. I haven't asked him about it myself, but a friend recently did and Picko didn't have much more to tell.
When Barrie was at Anderstorp in -69 one Swedish magazine wrote that he was driving the ex-Troberg car.

[barathieu gerar]

very exciting thread !!!

it is confrmed that there was three LOLA with the same chassis' number !!!

did anyone TOMAS had a photo of the wrecked car in the PICKO TROBERG

office ?

[Tomas Karlsson]

Sorry! I would love to have seen it. But take a look at this homepage and you will find pictures from the Nürburgring crash. It would take a lot of money and effort to rebuild that thing...
http://www.ssij.nu/ringen.htm

[barathieu gerar]

nice TOMAS ,

this is a long and fashination story.

Thanks to BARRIE for his help.

very nice guy !!!

it will be very interesting if each ex-owner of a car could spoke

about his ownership history !!

[John Turner]

Thanks, indeed Tomas; that is absolutely totalled. It just HAD to be replaced by a completely new car. The early history for this chassis no. is really emerging now, which is excellent, and I'm satisfied that, in effect, we had 3 cars in 1969 with the 148 number, albeit that each replaced the previous written off one.

[John Turner]

Ok, finally had it confirmed. Gerry Marshall drove this car to win the 1981 Dubai GP. This, to date, is the only time this race was run, I believe.

[Barriebrdc]

Hi Everybody,
Happy New Year to all.
My resolution is that I learn some new web authoring software and rebuild my
web sites !!!
So I am just starting on the third and for me the most ambitious one about my experiences in Motor sport from 1967-1973. This will take a while to complete as I expect it will be the only racing site I will publish. My plan is to include quites from the mechanics, friends who helped, and get quotes from other drivers, as well as my own memories. I do have quite a lot of photos but if anyone out there have pictures of my F3 races in Chevron B9 [1969] or some early shots of races on the club circuit in Lotus 15 or Brabham BT8 I will be very appreciative.
In the mean time one new site is out there at www.frenchpix.com
this relates to The French Picture Library which has been my occupation since leaving motor sport all those years ago.
thanks
Barrie.

[John Turner]

Great to hear from you, Barrie. You must be a bit psychic since I'm in the middle of preparing a revised history sheet for SL73/148 to include all the great new info. particularly from you, that has been provided on this thread. I hope to post it here later today.

Can anyone help Barrie with his request?

[John Turner]

The History of SL73/148 added and amended which I am going to send to Chris, as well as posting in the archive, with the proviso that there is certainly more to find out about this car:-

LOLA T70 Mk 3B – SL76/148

Completed – 12/03/1969
Gearbox No. LG600-184
Engine – 304-011 Traco Chevrolet

1969
• Sold to Picko Troberg, via Jo Bonnier
• 01/05 – Magny Cours – Troberg – 4th OA (No.92)
• 04/05 – Dijon – Troberg – 2nd OA (No. 5)
• 11/05 – Spa 1000Kms – Troberg/ B. Rothstein – 11th OA (No.34)
• 01/06 – Nurburgring 1000Kms – Troberg/Rothstein – DNS – crashed
in practice by Rothstein - Total write off - remains retained by Troberg, who (apparently) has retained them to this day.
• Lola supplied completely new car with same chassis no. to Troberg
• 06/07 – Anderstorp – Troberg - 4th
• 14/07 – Magny Cours – Ronnie Peterson - 1st OA
• 27/07 – Zeltweg (Ostereichring) – Peterson – crashed following radius rod failure, and rolled several times - very extensively damaged.
• ??/08 - Crashed remains returned to Lola
• ??/08 - Crashed remains sold to Barrie Smith,
• Lola built brand new car for Smith, using only the roof section and rebuilt engine and gearbox from the remains. The spare package included anything usable from the crashed remains
• 14/09 – Anderstorp – Barrie Smith – 7th
• 21/09 – Salzburgring – Smith - ?
• 27/09 – Zandvoort – Smith – DNF
• 19/10 – Hockenheim – Smith – 6th

1970
• 11/01 – Buenos Aires 1000Kms – Smith/Ed Swart – DNF
• 18/01 – Buenos Aires 200miles – Swart - ?
• 28/03 – Thruxton G4/6 race – Smith – 4th OA
• 10/05 – Fassberg Airfield – Smith – 5th
• 21/06 – Monthlery G5/6 – Smith - 4th
• 28/06 – International Norisring Rennen – Smith – 9th
• 05/07 - Hockenheim Interserie – Smith 6th
• 19/07 – Magny Cours G5/6/7 – Ronnie Peterson – 5th
• 08/08 – Karlskoga – GP Sweden - ? – 11th
• 13/09 - Phoenix Park – Smith - 3rd (Alternator failed whilst leading)
• ??/09 – Crystal Palace – Smith - 1st
• 07/11 – Kyalami 9 Hours – Smith/Pretorious – 7th
• ??/11 - Returned to UK (NB – did not go to South America)

Sold to ? Farley – date/year?

1974
• Sold to Mike Weatherill who did not use it
• Sold to Richard Bond

1975
• 12/07 – Silverstone – Unicognac Trophy – Bond – 2nd OA (No. 201 – programme says car was red)
• 4 other races – Bond has 2 x 1st, 1 x 5th, & 1 x 7th

1976
• Sold to Geoffrey Marsh (Marsh Plant Hire)
• Raced by Gerry Marshall

1981
• Dubai Grand Prix – Marshall – 1st

1985
• Sold to David Piper/Richard Attwood

1993
• 27/06 – Thruxton – Jonathan Baker – 2nd OA
• 24-25/07 – Silverstone – Baker – 2nd OA
• 07/08 – Nurburgring – Mauro Borella – 4th in class

1996
• 04/08 – Silverstone – Coys – The Visage Pre’ 72 Le Mans – Chris Strakosch – 3rd OA (No.15 – car still painted red and entered by David Piper)

2002
• Sold to a French Collector
• Complete mechanical restoration which continued into 2003

2005
• Sold to GTC

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Thanks, indeed Tomas; that is absolutely totalled. It just HAD to be replaced by a completely new car. The early history for this chassis no. is really emerging now, which is excellent, and I'm satisfied that, in effect, we had 3 cars in 1969 with the 148 number, albeit that each replaced the previous written off one.

Would it not be healthier and safer to say that there was one car in 1969 which rebuilt twice, this avoids the complex situation where the remains of a car suddenly become an incarnation thirty years later. I am sure that if any of the owners of any crashed and destroyed car then were asked if they still had the car they would have replied ''No that was destroyed and I had another built'' the concept that the running gear or some suspension components were the car would not have occurred to them.Now of course when there is big money involved the concept of ownership and cars is prone to alter and memories blur. As an example if one had approached Mr Ferrari in 1970 and asked to buy one of the Lancia D50's he surely would have laughed and told one that they were thrown away 20 years before-they no longer existed in his mind. IMHO that reflects facts and avoids the getting into discussion now as to how many examples of an individual car exists.

[John Turner]

Erm ... have you read the thread and my summary, Jeremy?

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Erm ... have you read the thread and my summary, Jeremy?

Yes John it is a big semantic,albeit pedantic point, and we are not in disagreement, but a problem we see today is several cars claiming ine identity-mine is the April car and yours is the June car sort of thing. My perspective here is to say that when a car is crashed and rebuilt the old car no longer exists nor, importantly can ever exist again, the 'thread ' of the car goes into the new entity and all existance of the old one is gone. This avoids the ''of the 16 built there are now 28 '' syndrome.
But lets not fall out over it.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

I am sure that if any of the owners of any crashed and destroyed car then were asked if they still had the car they would have replied ''No that was destroyed and I had another built''

As a general rule, I'd agree but in this case:

Originally Posted by Barriebrdc

Lola ... built me a new car

Allen

[John Turner]

Yes, in general, I don't disagree Jeremy, provided that reasonable doubts exist but where, as in a case like this the evidence is strong enough to point to the most likely conclusions, I think we are obliged to say so. As Allen has pointed out, we know from Barrie himself, that a new car was built using only the existing engine, gearbox and the roof section of the earlier car. Furthermore, we know that even if he doesn't have it now, Picko Troberg retained the original 'written off' remains of the crashed car for many years and therefore long after its replacement had not only been built but it, too, had also been crashed so severely that a further new car (Barrie's) had to be built. The fact is that the car was not 'rebuilt twice'; we effectively had two new cars after the first was destroyed, and to say otherwise (as far as the evidence produced here indicates) is inaccurate.

There is a larger issue, here, of course. I was contacted recently by an owner of a classic racing car who had noted that a thread had been started in the chassis archive of the particular car of which he had an example. He said that a register existed amongst the owners of these cars giving details of their ownership and history, but that it was not available publicly for fear that the information could be used to build (missing?) cars that could then 'acquire' provenance. I cannot remotely agree with this as it is the very vagueness and obscurity engendered by a veil of secrecy that provides the breeding ground for such cars and their fraudulent claims.

This is a public forum, and whilst it is not the primary function of the Chassis Archive to expose the cars of dubious claims, often simply by remaining silent on them for fear of litigation, it is potentially a by product of all our desires to establish the history and provenance of old racing cars. It seems to me that the more knowledge there is in the public place the less likely (but admittedly not impossible) that it is that a car with dubious provenance can be foisted upon the unsuspecting. To bring this full circle back to the topic of this thread; if another SL73/148 should suddenly appear on the scene, it is already on public record here that it cannot be the car with the continuous history since 1969, currently owned by Chris Beighton. At best (but extremely unlikely) it might 'claim' to contain the 'odd' part from one or both of the original cars but that makes it neither the original nor the car to which the continuous history belongs. Frankly, that is all we can do; establish the truth based on the evidence before us; it is for others to decide whether they would wish to purchase a 'new' car with such a tenuous (and dubious at that) claim.

[Glyn Jones]

Gentlemen, It is well known at Lola that in years gone by, when the regime for collection of sales tax on motor cars was quite different, several cars left the Factory using the same chassis number. For instance, when Piko Troberg wrecked his original 148 chassis and was supplied with a new car it is likely the original cars identity was used to avoid paying the relevent tax. The invoice would probably have related to repairs which for tax purposes was an entirely different issue.

The same may have happened when Barrie Smith received his car.

There are also stories of 'floating' chassis plates which went back and forth to agents such as Bonnier, Mader and Haas. In addition, Jo Bonnier and Carl Haas each had a cache of chassis plates for their own use in masaging the tax burden whenever possible.

We are talking about a completely different world where these sort of antics were a daily routine. Please also remember that the cars did not enjoy the huge value they do today. The cars were 'this years model', no more no less. This is evidenced by the fate of the car Barrie Smith crashed at Brands. It was not considered viable to repair and the salvageable parts were used to build Mick Hills Boss Capri. Only when the value of T70's rocketed did those parts become three cars claiming to be, or to have in them some part of, the original.

Glyn Jones, Lola Cars International.

[John Turner]

Glyn, a very warm welcome and great comments, thank you. Please pop in here as much as your time allows! I rather think this lends added credence to our summary for 148, although (apparently) Troberg didn't take note of the fact that the replacement carried the same number.

[allenbrown]

Good to see you here Glyn!

Allen

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Ok, finally had it confirmed. Gerry Marshall drove this car to win the 1981 Dubai GP. This, to date, is the only time this race was run, I believe.

Gerry's son Gregor has kindly lent me Gerry's old video tape collection of some of the races he taped from the TV that he competed in and some interesting footage out-takes that could not possibly be broadcast! Included is the Dubai GP of 1981, the 'Top Gear' highlights with William Woollard and the ITV 'World of Sport' broadcast, I assume shown a week later with Dickie Davies. Commentator was Andy Marriot. Gerry won the race which included many historic GT cars we still see racing today including David Piper's Ferrari P4.
Also on the bill, as the main event was a celebrity race in Citroen CX's - Stirling, Dan Gurney, Roy Salvadori and many of the F1 stars from '81.

[John Turner]

Another result found for the car when owned by Geoffrey Marsh:-

03/07/1982 - St John Horsfall - Silverstone - Atlantic Computer Historic Championship round over 15 laps - 1st (Ray Mallock).

I'm also finding references to Richard Bond racing the car after 1976, so did he continue to drive it after he had sold it to Marsh or is the sale date of 1976 incorrect?

[Andrew Kitson]

This is Ray in the car at Silverstone on bank holiday Monday 31st May 1982.
Atlantic historic GT race, at the F3 meeting on the club circuit.
Ray was on pole, although my programme does not have him as the winner - that was Tony Charnell's Lola T212, who started middle front row with Wheatley's T70 on the outside.



The car was in these same colours when Gerry won the Dubai GP with it in '81.

[Barriebrdc]

There are some more photos of this car on the new web site published this month:
http://www.frenchpix.com/racingtimes
Hope you enjoy it,
Barriebrdc

[J2M]

Hello
I am the French collector who bought the car from David Piper and sold it back recently.
From my windows whether the car was rebuilt or not is quite irrelevant, as long as there is no other car claiming to have the same number, which is the case for 148. Different times. Chassis were damaged, engines broke. The obsession with matching numbers for ferrari racecars for example escapes me.

The car was wonderful to drive. I took it to Le Mans Classic twice and to a few early CER events (Monza, Nurburgring, Silverstone)
I have quite a lot of pics and videos if anyone is interested

Here are two fun onboard laps at LMC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqJOGYJoFZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9XH2tVV5Mw
and at CER Nurburgring in 2004
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDf-Mx5vud8

J2M

[GBRM]

Copied from the chassis thread (JT feel free to edit):-

From some recently found files (whilst snowed in) and hopefully of some interest!!

"This is thought to one of the last T70s, chassis number SL76/148 and was sold by Jo Bonnier to Picko Troberg. It was crashed very badly at the 1000kms at the 'Ring by Bjorn Rothstein and was re-built by Lola in August '69 and sold to Barrie Smith who raced it at Buenos Aries in Jan '69 (co-driver Ed Swart) and then raced again at the Kylami 9 hour in the November (co-driver Jackie Pretorious).
It was then converted to a road car in 1971 and then bought from Mike Weatherill in 1974 by Richard Bond and converted back to a racer and was raced various times in '75 & '76 at Silverstone and Oulton Park, gaining two 1sts, a 2nd a 5th and a 7th.
It was then bought by Geoffrey Marsh in November '76 and raced extensively by Richard Bond in '77 (BAT Series, four 1sts and two 2nds) '78 (two class wins) and '79 (Wild Rose series, three 1sts and on 2nd) before being rested for '80".

From my records, in '81 it was raced three times by my late father, two wins (one at the Dubai GP 4/12/81 and one at Silverstone 4/10/81) and one retirement (Silverstone 18/7/81).

Unfortunately I'm not sure of it's life from '82 (Ray Mallock raced it as Geoffrey Marsh was building up a second T70 for my GM) until Chris Beighton/GTC purchased it in '05 but David Piper owned it in the '80s and I think he purchased from Geoffrey Marsh.