Silly season special - Suggest a way forward for F1 engines.

[Teretonga]

Thanks Tony.
You are right, I'd forgotten there was a constructors championship back in the 60's, but it wasn't emphasised the way it is today.
I knew Bernie was a good friend of Lewis-Evans and had raced but had turned away from the sport for a time after Lewis-Evans death. I had no idea he had an interest in Connaught.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

Is having different principles moving in different directions really more expensive than trying to squeeze the last few percents out of an essentially spec part?

Directions will be limited by 'what is best' for F1.

Honda currently have a fully functioning Honda Accord that develops 140bhp runs on Hydrogen,gives off only water as exhaust,has few moving parts and is as quiet as a mouse.Maybe the real reason they pulled out of F1 was to continue to develop this technology.Somehow,I don't think we'll be seeing it in F1!

Do you want to see/listen (?) to hydrogen powered cars in F1 ?

[Oldtony]

In a word Marbot YES.
Particularly if it means I get to drive the road version sooner.

[Bononi]

That's great ! And when all this will be implemented ?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

In a word Marbot YES.
Particularly if it means I get to drive the road version sooner.

But silent engines aren't good for the 'show' (see Knowlesy's post above).And you wouldn't necessarily get to drive one sooner just because they use the technology in F1.Political considerations will put paid to that.Imagine trying to sell it to the Arabs!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Bononi

That's great ! And when all this will be implemented ?

When we've all gone deaf.

[kurtiejjj]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Do you want to see/listen (?) to hydrogen powered cars in F1 ?

As long as they don't use a fuel cell that'll be fine be me. There must still be some noise in F1, that's a vital ingredient of the sport, that's why I proposed using a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine!

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Marbot

When we've all gone deaf.

Maybe some generous soul could turn this into a simulation game.

Some sort of F1 Manager, Formula One car builder or F1 Sim...

You know, there are always people making money out of this.

[johntt]

Heres my idea:

- Horsepower capped at 850bhp.
- Three races per engine.
- Fuel limit of ordinary road fuel.
- On-board starter motors.
- Pneumatic valves banned, not practical for road application.
- Otherwise do what you want (within reason).

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by johntt

- Otherwise do what you want (within reason).

That's one hell of a big grey area.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by Marbot

That's one hell of a big grey area.

Thats the idea, its to get the engineering talent that is in F1 to think creatively

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by johntt

Thats the idea, its to get the engineering talent that is in F1 to think creatively

But you've already strangled the bit they like best.

[Teretonga]

But if we have a quiet F1 that will satisfy the environmental noise people... We can have F1 in Picadilly, no problem.

No noise problem at Brands Hatch so F1 can return there (start work now Jonothan P., be prepared....)

Silent motor racing....like watching silent movies....

[Dutton]

If it were some configuration of needlessly powerful turbo, then I would be happy. 900bhp would not be considered needlessly powerful. I mean a bit of higher region than that.

I want them to have nice and soft tyres but yet still have way more power than they can handle.

Before anyone suggests the alternative to me of using much lower powered engines with much lower performance tyres, well, let me just say you would be absolutely missing the point of what I am getting at.

[Armco Bender]

Ford DFV.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Dutton

If it were some configuration of needlessly powerful turbo, then I would be happy. 900bhp would not be considered needlessly powerful. I mean a bit of higher region than that.

I want them to have nice and soft tyres but yet still have way more power than they can handle.

Before anyone suggests the alternative to me of using much lower powered engines with much lower performance tyres, well, let me just say you would be absolutely missing the point of what I am getting at.

So basically, they could drive like this, but on completely dry pavement. :P

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Matt

So basically, they could drive like this, but on completely dry pavement. :P

It would be nice,but will the lap times come up to the expectations of the 'pinnacle' people?

[Marbot]

I can reasonably understand why a manufacturer like Ferrari isn't too interested in the 'economy' side of things.Even with their current range you would be struggling to find a car in it that can better 15 mpg (UK) driven at the official (read:relatively slow) fuel consumption speeds.Not that it seems to put owners off! Most of their owners don't give a toss whether it does 13 or 30 mpg! Economy just doesn't come into it for them.

So as far as Ferrari are concerned,F1 is still an expensive indulgence,which is what a Ferrari is.

[Dutton]

Fuel economy could be of use for FIAT, though.

As for the powersliding thing as suggested by Matt, that would not be the primary reason for my desire for significantly more power than grip. That visual aspect is a delightful bonus, but the real reason simply being that it makes it more recognisably "difficult" for the drivers. As for achieving this via sticky tyres and huge power rather than low(er) performance tyres and low(er) performance engines, well, it is just because I would much prefer the former to the latter.

I'm not one of the people who think the current cars are easy to drive, but I do get annoyed by the claims that they are. So, by my reckoning, having the cars with quite a bit more power than grip can help provide two benefits: a reduction in whining that the cars are too easy to drive, and nice visuals when the drivers don't modulate the throttle suitably. I'd throw in a manual gearbox whilst we're at it.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Fuel economy could be of use for FIAT, though.

Only if the two red cars were called 'Fiat'.

Fiat have already said that the F1 KERS are well behind what they already have as Fiat also share transmissions,engines,bodies with other manufacturers (Saab,Isuzu,Opel,Vauxhall,Holden,GM American division etc and soforth).They really don't have to rely on Ferrari to come up with something that they will already have.

[Teretonga]

As for the video I agree with Dutton.
We need more power than the grip level can cope with, so it is like sliding around in the wet....

I can see no problem with a 1800-2000 turbo 4 or V6, limited boost, but running at 800hp, with harder tyres that could be expected to run a whole GP, and an aero package that reduces aero grip (and wake turbulance).

If they slither around a bit so what.
What it would do is end the 'cornering on rails' stuff that has become common place and put it back on the handling and driving package...

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I can see no problem with a 1800-2000hp turbo 4 or V6,

Fixed!

In all seriousness I don't really have a problem with the current engines, although ideally I suppose I would prefer the "traditional" 3L format and a turbo alternative. I would like to see a total amount of fuel available for the race to promote work on fuel efficiency however. The devil is in the detail, and the key to the regulations IMO is how to prevent the use of ridiculously expensive materials and technologies.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by johnh875

I would like to see a total amount of fuel available for the race to promote work on fuel efficiency however.

There aren't too many on here that would go for the 'economy' thing.

[Teretonga]

I can see no problem with a 1800-2000 turbo 4 or V6, limited boost, but running at 800hp,

Thats what I posted John.... Not a 1800-2000hp engine!
Don't misquote me! However if you want 1800-2000hp I am sure you will find some supporters although you'll probably need 20inch wheels and some massive 8 pot calipers on the brakes.... plus the FIA will want about 200m of run off on every straight longer than 400m....

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

There aren't too many on here that would go for the 'economy' thing.

I'd agree with that Marbot...the 'economy' fuel restricted formula for turbos in the late 80's was not popular with the drivers at all.

A fuel flow formula would be a better way to approach it. Limit the amount running through the engine and let the engineers come up witht something that works, not driver tip toeing around trying to save fuel.