800 or 990, what's your verdict?

[jhansen]

I still like the 990's better. Here's some commentary on the mattter:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2007/Aug/e/n070822a.htm

[Knowlesy]

990's all the way. 800's suck.

[jhansen]

The great thing about the 990's was the riders looked to be riding. Imagine that! It's getting a bit too F1 like now. The bikes are well planted and just fly through the turns. The 990's saw a lot more movement and creativity.

If anyone saw the the WSBK race 2 at Lausitzring...watching Haga and Bayliss work those bikes...that's what I want to see!

[jhansen]

Something that we have not really talked much about is the fuel capacity limit. This is one area where Ducati has nailed it. The Hondas were really hampered by this last year. Just read an article about James Toseland's strategy for Qatar. They're still experiencing a performance loss over a race distance because of fuel.

2 Questions: Was there a fuel limit during the 990 era? And what's the reason for it in the 800 era?

[bestfit]

The original fuel capacity limit for the 990's was 24 litres. This was reduced to 22 litres from 2005 onwards. It was again reduced to 21 litres for the 800s.

Limiting fuel capacity has the flow on effect of limiting rpms. More rpms means more fuel which means it must be managed very carefully in order to complete race distance. This was the big advantage Ducati had last year. Their Desmo systems allows the engine to rev to 20000+ rpm while using less fuel than either the valve spring or pneumatic valve designs. As such the Ducati could use more revs for longer in a race compared to their opposition. And we saw the result.

Pneumatic valve engines use less fuel than the traditional valve spring design and this why the Japanese factories are all heading down the pneumatic design (although Honda at present have reverted to valve springs as they can't get their pneumatic engine to produce more power than their springer design).

The fuel capacity limit has the effect of putting a spending cap on development costs and creates a more level playing field. It prevents the bigger manufacturers from throwing mega bucks into engine design by using highly exotic materials etc to produce engines capable of spinning to phenomenal rpm levels.

The challenge becomes who can produce the most power from their engines over a GP length rather than who can throw the most money at developing earth bound rocket ships.

It also means that traction control, launch control, engine braking etc must be very carefully managed as they all have an effect on fuel consumption.
I remember last year the Ducati team stated their aim was to run out of fuel on the way back to the pits on the warm down lap and they achieved it a couple of times.

Without a fuel capacity limit I doubt that the bigger companies (ie Honda) would ever lose a championship, as the opposition could never match their spending power.

BTW some interesting comments in this old thread.


(I've been trying to set a record for the quickest poster to 1000 posts. Did I make it?)

[jhansen]

Thanks bestfit. Although I'd prefer to see another liter of fuel on board if it would improve the racing.

Originally Posted by bestfit

(I've been trying to set a record for the quickest poster to 1000 posts. Did I make it?)

Well, seeing as you and I joined at similar times, I'd say no.

Congrats on 1K though.

[bestfit]

Well, seeing as you and I joined at similar times, I'd say no.

Damn!

[bestfit]

I'll

[bestfit]

have

[bestfit]

to

[bestfit]

try

[bestfit]

harder.

[Hazza]

Yes.

Very good.

[chunder]

Oh dear

[bestfit]

I remember last year the Ducati team stated their aim was to run out of fuel on the way back to the pits on the warm down lap and they achieved it a couple of times.

Notice that both Stoner and Pedrosa ran out of fuel in pit lane on the way to the podium.

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by bestfit

Pneumatic valve engines use less fuel than the traditional valve spring design and this why the Japanese factories are all heading down the pneumatic design.
...
It also means that traction control, launch control, engine braking etc must be very carefully managed as they all have an effect on fuel consumption.

You forgot the most important factor, aerodynamics. When you talk aerodynamics, you have to mention cooling. I know Ducati used a different cooling system than the others when we still had 990cc. They run a system under higher pressures. This allowed them to make a more efficient aero-package, which resulted in a high top speed. Just to show how complicated aerodynamics is: Ducati had trouble with the front forks and the stifness with their tubular frame, the front wheel touching the frame and radiator. So they tried different forks, with bigger tubes. This effected the aero-package so much, that instantly the Yamaha's and Honda's were quicker in a straight line. This all happened in Brno in 2004 or 2005.

Originally Posted by bestfit

Without a fuel capacity limit I doubt that the bigger companies (ie Honda) would ever lose a championship, as the opposition could never match their spending power.

I doubt that very much. I think that it would be Ducati. Although they always say they are a small factory from Italy (which is true when you talk about roadbikes), they do have the latest built racefactory, specially built for the 800cc programme. Ducati also have a collaboration with Piero Ferrari's High Performance Engineering concern (money and knowhow from F1).

[Gerben24]

PS. I forgot to mention it would not just be Ducati that would make Honda's life difficult without that restriction. I'm pretty sure Yamaha would be there as well. However, sometimes I wonder what Suzuki and especially Kawasaki are up to.

PS2. Bestfit, are you having fun creating those gif-images?

[bestfit]

PS2. Bestfit, are you having fun creating those gif-images?

I have discovered the Gimp!

[chunder]

Hehe Vale would eat them all with 990 and no electronics!! He can steer with the rear.

I ahve to say also that Toseland can too, but we will never know now

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by chunder

He can steer with the rear.

So can Hayden, Capirossi, Melandri and Hopkins. I don't think Rossi would eat them all, I do think the results would be different.

[chunder]

Hopkins is a front end pusher as are Loris and Melandri. they can do it both ways but usually only show boating.

Its different steering with the rear and also doing it quickly!!

The aforementioned guys can adjust their style a little but in reality the last guys who could do it properly were Sete and Criville, and of courseMcCoy!!

Bayliss can do it, but really Marco, Loris and Hopper push teh front and have never shown any talent for spinning the rear in the way that a Criville, Doohan or Rossi have in the past