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27 May 2008, 18:26 (Ref:2213304) | #26 | ||
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the Speed World Challenge Touring Car division, is it under S2000 regulation ? the Acura TSX looked the same as the "European" Honda Accord !!
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27 May 2008, 18:37 (Ref:2213315) | #27 | |||
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27 May 2008, 18:57 (Ref:2213332) | #28 | |
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Sorry but I'm not, check the dates.
The BTCC Mondeo appeared in 1993, the Duratec V6 wasn't fitted to a road car until the following year. When the BTCC car first raced there was no such thing as a V6 Mondeo. |
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27 May 2008, 19:37 (Ref:2213371) | #29 | |
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IIRC the BTCC Mondeo was fitted with the Mazda V6.
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27 May 2008, 19:40 (Ref:2213374) | #30 | |||
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different regs, but you are correct. In North Amercia, its an Acura TSX, In Europe is the Accord (the North Americans get a truly dreadful bland Accord!) |
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28 May 2008, 00:52 (Ref:2213577) | #31 | |||
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28 May 2008, 07:43 (Ref:2213671) | #32 | |
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The rules say they could use any engine from any model in their range, and it was that engine fitted to the Probe. Although as I recall, at the time that model was only available in the US-market. Europe wouldn't get the V6 Probe until some time later. I'm not sure the duratec V6 was used anywhere in the Ford range in 1993.
It caused quite some controversy as it was the first time the engine swap rules had been so fully exploited. Not only was the engine from a different model it was being raced in a country where that other model wasn't even available. Many saw it as being from a different manufacturer as the only place a UK customer could buy one was fitted to a Mazda Xedos 6. |
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28 May 2008, 09:33 (Ref:2213754) | #33 | ||
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Additionally, wasn't the Duratec V6 only available in 2.5 litre configuration? In which case, for a 2.0 litre format they'd have to go for something else.
Last edited by Chris Y; 28 May 2008 at 09:35. |
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28 May 2008, 17:04 (Ref:2214039) | #34 | |
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I was working for Ford in the early 1990s and remember the launch of the second generation Ford Probe in Europe. It was touted as the replacement for the Ford Capri, but before it was launched, we learnt that the car was essentially a Mazda MX6 in drag. The V6 engine used in the BTCC Mondeo originated from the 2.5 litre Probe/MX6 and was sleeved down to 2.0 litre class regulation. I don't remember exactly when they went on sale, but I believe the Probe and the MX6 were both available in the UK in 1993.
Now that's settled... back to the Accord vs Civic |
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28 May 2008, 21:52 (Ref:2214235) | #35 | |||
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28 May 2008, 22:24 (Ref:2214253) | #36 | |
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The (UK-spec) Type-S is no longer a 2.0L, it's a SOHC 1.8L. The Type-R has a completely different DOHC 2.0L engine. I believe the previous shape Civic Type-S used the same 2.0L as the Type-R, or at least a variation of it.
As I understand it the BTCC car uses the DOHC engine from the Type-R. |
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28 May 2008, 22:35 (Ref:2214261) | #37 | ||
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dont know if this pic of the engine will help.
http://assets.speedhunters.com/u/f/e...peS/civic6.jpg |
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28 May 2008, 22:52 (Ref:2214270) | #38 | |||
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29 May 2008, 09:26 (Ref:2214495) | #39 | ||
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As both the Civic and the Accord use the same engine, the difference in performance between the cars will be found in the body style.
Looking at last years BTCC calendar, I would suggest that the Civic would be strongest on the circuits where the petrol Leon performed well, and the Accord would be strongest on the circuits where the Vectra performed well. Ultimately though, it woud come down to how TD and JAS set the cars up. We've already seen this season in BTCC the difference in performance between Motorbase, Team RAC and Mat Jackson, yet in theory they're all starting with an equal model. |
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29 May 2008, 09:48 (Ref:2214512) | #40 | ||
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one problem with comparing the Civic with the petrol Leon is thruxton - where the petrol Leon was weak but the Civic is fairly strong
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29 May 2008, 10:46 (Ref:2214540) | #41 | ||
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29 May 2008, 10:57 (Ref:2214548) | #42 | |||
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29 May 2008, 11:15 (Ref:2214557) | #43 | |
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From a theoretical/empiracle perspective, the aero on a 2 box saloon is generally less efficient than a 3 box. On circuits where aero is important - i.e. where the car is on full throttle a lot, then the 3 box is likely to be better. However there are many other factors involved as well and particularly so with the 2 Honda derivatives. The Neil Brown motor in the TD Civic is known to be very strong, this could be delivering more horsepower than the same motor in the N.Tech Accord - we don't know. Also, TD may have optimized the chassis on the Civic better than N.Tech have done with the Accord... in which case the TD Civic would be able to usurp the theoretical aero advantage of the N.Tech Accord on the more open circuits.
There's only one way to find the answer to this conundrum and that's to do a back to back with the same driver. Otherwise we're just going round in circles speculating. |
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29 May 2008, 14:02 (Ref:2214653) | #44 | ||
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I like speculating :-) A difference between the 2 cars is the wheelbase I think. That would give an advantage to the civics in tight corners, and to the accords on longer corners. That might be the reason why TD have chosen the Civic, the average BTCC-track is twistier than the average WTCC-track.
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29 May 2008, 16:54 (Ref:2214781) | #45 | |||
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29 May 2008, 17:45 (Ref:2214811) | #46 | |||
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29 May 2008, 18:57 (Ref:2214851) | #47 | ||
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30 May 2008, 08:00 (Ref:2215134) | #48 | |||
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27 Sep 2008, 21:53 (Ref:2299195) | #49 | ||
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when Honda Europe will wake up and give more support to the very small N-Technology/JAS effort, after Imola I think its a duty to help Tommo
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28 Sep 2008, 12:00 (Ref:2299433) | #50 | ||
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