40 minute races for German Cars

[MGDavid]

don't ever give up hope chaps - I won last night the princely sum of 84 quid, better than a kick in the wotsits. Had 2 or 3 tenners this year too, all a step in the right direction as long as I live long enough


(PS - begging letters will be ignored)

(PPS sorry for thread drift; my German car is only eligible for FCs)

[andy97]

The first race for this new CSCC Series took place at Snetterton on 10th April & 12 cars took to the grid (all front engined Porsches & BMWs). The club thought that this wasn't a bad start for a brand new series. 17 cars were out at Brands Hatch for race 2 of the season including a couple of 911s joining in the fun.

A few of the german car runners in CSCC "Future Classic" runners may switch to "Deutsche Marque" in the future if FC is continues to be over subscribed, as seems likely, so the Deutsche Marque series looks like growing. I think the CSCC will also allow in pre 1990 German cars now from oversubscribed series such as FC or for a second race.

It would be good to see more cars out and the up to 2.5 litre class must be the ideal place for a few of the older Porsche 944s that are in captivity, especially if in the 190 Bhp trim that EMC seemed to be able to develop for the old Super Coupe Cup. It would also be good to see a few VWs & Audis added to the grid (the up to 3 litre class must be ideal for a vew VAG 1.8 turbo cars!), plus the "Opel" (nee Vauxhall!) Vectra Challenge cars.

[andy97]

The CSCC Deutsche Marque Regs for 2012 are out now & can be found here:

http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/deutschemarq...

The club have made some changes to the series regs. The series grew well in 2011 with a high point of 19 cars at Silverstone, not bad for a series in its first year, but feedback from competitors and potential competitors has led to a few slight changes to try to encourage even more cars out, particularly smaller capacity cars and cars with nearer standard power outputs.

The main changes are:

1. German cars (inc Opels etc) of any age are allowed to compete (previously it was 1990 onwards)
2. BMW minis are now allowed in (in both naturally aspirated and forced induction form)
3. Turbo cars are now allowed in up to 2.5 litres (it was previously limited to 2 litres turbo)
4. 1.8 litre VAG Turbo powered cars will now be allowed in the up to 3 litre class (previously they were over 3 litres).
5 The class structure has been revised as follows (Class A & B are new):
Class structure:
Class A - Up to 1600cc normally aspirated
Class B - 1601cc to 1800cc normally aspirated
Class C - 1801cc to 2499cc normally aspirated
Class D - 2500cc to 2999cc including VAG 1800 Turbos and forced induction BMW Mini Cooper.
Class E - up to 3000cc models with variable valve timing as a standard feature including 3 litre BMW M3 and Porsche 968
Class F- 3000cc and over including Porsche 944 Turbo and BMW 3.2 Evo
Class I - Invitation Class. (Not eligible for awards)

Porsche GT2 and GT3 are specifically excluded from the series as are all cars prepared to BMWRDC Kumho Championship Classes A to D technical regulations.

[snowen250]

Out of intrest why are the Kumho cars excluded? I would have thought this would exclude a potentially large group of potental competitors?

Otherwise im excited about seeing you guys again, do you know your 2012 dates yet, more specifically the Brands round?

Simon

[andy97]

The clanedar is here: http://www.classicsportscarclub.co.uk/calendar.htm

Provisional still, at the moment.

Not sure about the detail behind the Kumho cars.

[snowen250]

Well i hope its provisional as May 7th for Brands is a monday!

Hopefully the correct date is the 12-13th as im back from America then and the CSCC meeting is one of my favourites of the year.

Simon

[Tim Falce]

Snowen, I think you'll find 7 May is a BH.

[snowen250]

You are correct!

Looks like i'll have to try and find another round to see the CSCC at then this year. Thanks Tim.

Simon

[terence]

Cologne Capri? RS 2600?. RS2300? German built were they not?

[andy97]

Terry, this sort of thing has been discussed, but its where the "Marque" originates from, not where the car originates from that counts. Hence , Fords are considered to be a US Marque but Opel is a German Marque. Similarly, the BMW Minis are now allowed in but VAG cars such as Skodas & SEATs or even lambos are not!

[Al Weyman]

I m surprised CSCC are continuing with this loss maker the races i see were in single figures.

[andy97]

The entry for the first race of the 2011 season was 12 & they grew at each race thereafter up to 19 at Silverstone. Thereafter entries dropped markedly & they were merged with Future Classics (from whence they came). The club have had continuing registrations and enquiries, & consultations with existing and potential competitors, hence the shape of the revised regs to meet competitor aspirations. The club won't flog a dead horse but will strive to make this a success this year. If it isn't a success, it will be canned.

[Al Weyman]

Very wise, thats how 750 does it!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by andy97

1. German cars (inc Opels etc) of any age are allowed to compete (previously it was 1990 onwards)

Including Vauxhall-badged Opels?

[andy97]

You have to change the Vauxhall badge to an Opel! But that still means you can "badge engineer" a Vectra Challenge car or a VX220 (Opel Speedster!)

[MarkKo]

I noticed that someone finally( albeit too late for me), agreed with my view and 944 turbos are now allowed to race in DM,i spoke to someone about this before i sold mine and they were adamant that 951s would not be allowed...ever!!!!!
A bit of back pedalling there.....!???
Best of luck with the 2012 season,will come and watch a race or two :-)

[andy97]

Mark, come and play with your 968 occasionally.

[MarkKo]

Thanks Andy
Entering PCGB again this year i am hooked till i get a season where the car runs better and i can do as well as i feel i can,its SO hard and close and i really want to do a little better this year by maybe a couple of places overall and would fear for the extra wear and tear damage potential on the 968...would mean missing a pcgb race.(points etc).
Will watch what happens with the CSCC series Porschewise though would really like to build another 951 from scratch perhaps this time ALOT lighter.. the old car was a tank!(good tank though)!
Would love to cheer stuart J on at Donnington,maybe my old (now lighter) car might be out aswell, would be fun to watch it piloted by its new owner.
Stuck a spare Future classics sticker on my 2012 diary and i read the results with great interest.
Have a great season chaps

[andy97]

Mark, if its any consolation I argued that the limit for turbo cars should be 3 litres, or maybe 2.7, right from the start, as I felt that there was potential for things like Audi S4s to come out to play in DM. I didn't quite win on that limit but at least there is now potential for the 944T and Audi S2 to race. I also seem to have won the argument for the VAG 1.8T cars to run in the up to 3 litre class in 2012 (rather than in the over 3 litre class - they are just over 3 litre when the 1.7 multiplier is taken in to account). I just hope plenty of people come out to play.

[robhollyman]

when will they reralise that the turbo limit should be 3.6? so some proper cars car come out to play.

i saw your 968 last week mark,

[andy97]

Rob, the "problem" with Turbo cars in general is that you can get some massive horsepower out of them & create some real missiles! To some thats a great thing & they can certainly be spectacular but it can also be very expensive & the performance that they can deliver can put others off. The reason the CSCC has limited turbo size to 2.5 litres is because it wants to encourage more cars out to play that are more readily accesible to those on a lower budget & that tends to be existing n/a cars. The club certainly don't want to put people off who may have a Golf, Opel, BMW or cheaper Porsche etc but who may not want to be on the grid with some turbo nutter b@5t@rd cars (a description nicked off a well known track day organiser!).The limit was raised to 2.5 litres because the club already has a few 944 Turbo owners who want to race in DM (Sorry Mark that the change came too late for you) but the 944T is an old car now & it was felt that this was where the limit should lie.

Rightly or wrongly the club want to encourage "the many" and not "the few" & this was the way that was chosen.

[robhollyman]

its just frustrating that there aren't many places left to run turbo nutter b@5t@rd cars anymore.

there is probably enough of them out there to make a series of it!

[ANDY J]

Rob and Marko why dont you try Denis Bassom at The Classic Touring Car Club as i think they may be eligable for the Classic Thunder Championship this year.classictouringcars.com

[greenamex2]

As Andy said, you are more than welcome to join Classic Thunder, please feel free to contact me if you want any details.

[MarkKo]

Hi Rob
Best of luck this year in whatever you go for!
Andy J Thanks for the heads up i will have a look at that for future perhaps if i build another.
Andy97 Shame that the DM rules first time round didnt allow 951s it smacked to me that someone that had alot to do with the rules wanted to exclude them.... at the time,its how a certain conversation came across anyways... and now numbers are dissapointing.....backpedal..this silly"strategy" excluded a regular that wanted to be in with the Porsches.Now "big power" M3s are the "Bogey"..
Everyone always assumes..turbo..massive power..thats not always true i tuned mine for reliability for long races(not one DNF in a whole full season of FCs plus some intermarque and sports v saloons) 290 ish brake maybe a tad more but it weighed as much as a small house plus with me not being the lightest driver...Great fun though.
Thats the way the cookie crumbles i suppose i am sure the guy who bought my car will do some races.
Once again all the best for 2012.