[LM24] Whats the future of LMP's at Le Mans??

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by Cadete
You can still see these GT1 cars back, Aysedasi, but in a category that is more suited to them, the LMP1.

I could live with that.


Easily.

[simon c]

Originally posted by RTH
I would like to see an end to prototypes at Le Mans to be replaced by three classes of modified cars based on road going production sports cars with a maximum showroom price of up to £60,000 with a minimum proven production of at least 250 cars every year.

Say up to 2 litres and 800kg
up to 3 litres and 1200kg
up to 4 litres and 1600kg

The exact details could be thrashed out with some research - but you get the idea so that in theory all cars would have a similar power to weight ratio, none would have wings an overall win might come from any class.

Its all fantasy of course as the ACO is firmly wedded to prototypes preferably french built with french drivers and painted blue .
Pity we don't have our own 24 hr race for sports cars in UK (at Snetterton )

imho that would would completely rubbish le mans. gts / prototype, whatever - fast cars is what lm is about. with this a sub 4'45" lap would be a real talking point. alomost btcc'esque in terms of speed - it is painful watching these things. under these rules porscge could enter a carrera 2 at 1600kgs, no ferrari, no lambo, no corvette, no aston -stupid, crazy, scary

[dretceterini]

Why not? What were Jag D Types, GT 40s and even Porsche 935's if not the GTS cars of there day? Nobody complained about those sort of cars then and nobody clamoured for Formula type cars with fully enclosed bodywork which, in my own very strong opinion, is what the prototypes have become.

The C and D tye Jags were true prototypes, but 50 years ago, all prototypes were closer to street cars. The "GT" versions were the 120s.

By the mid-60s, prototypes had become somewhat different than the street version. The GT version of the Ford GT40 is the Mustang.

The differences between street cars and prototypes continued to grow, and I agree with you that they are somewhat like full bodied F1 cars.....but I do NOT think they should be eliminated from LeMans....in fact, if they are, much of my interest will be gone with them.

[RTH]

The C & D types were road legal based largely on XK mechanical components and were driven by road from England to Le Mans for the race. The GT40 complied with road going regulation was sold to the public , many thousands of replicas are on the road, Ford has just re-released an almost identical road car - they are not an Audi R8 or anything even remotely like it.

The reason the Le Mans 24 hr race was started in 1923 was so that street car manufacturers could prove to the world's press that their grand touring car was safe, strong ,durable ,reliable and in a race capable of beating all the opposition, and as such was the one the motorist should buy.

Of course by changing the cars , the circuit could be smoothed out removing all chicanes and slow corners

Jaguar have an all new all aluminium XK8 coming , the decision has now been made finally to make the F type Jaguar, Aston's DBV8 is on the way , Noble, TVR , Boxster, Corvette, Viper, Invicta , MGSV, NSX, Lotus, Morgan, all these cars and many more are in this price bracket, - nothing to stop Ferrari or anyone else offering a basic model for sale in this price range - its hardly peanuts.

[BSchneiderFan]

But the reason that 1950s/1960s 'prototypes' were closer to road-going cars and were often themselves road-legal was that the technology gap which exists today between road cars and race cars had not opened up. A grid at Le Mans full of road-based cars would be very, very dull, IMHO.

[Chevyguy]

dret, you hit the nail on the head by referring to the prototypes as formula cars with fenders. IMO, Le Mans should be about the fastest cars on the road, the way it was when the race began. Leave the aerospace engineers in the aerospace industry. RTH, the classes you described sound closer to touring cars than sportscars. If a GT1 type class came back into existance, at least then we could have cars that look like they were meant to be driven, and not flown.

[Chevyguy]

Almost forgot, C6R, tell me more about this "blue devil."

When the C6R debuts at Le Mans, is it safe to assume they gain 5 seconds? I'm sure the MC12 would probably be somewhere in that range. That would leave those two cars within about 15 seconds of most of the prototypes anyway. People think I'm crazy, but look at the potential.

[Garrett]

Well, even if the Vettes are 15 seconds away from the top notch P1 cars (Audi) at Le Mans, they could never win it outright. Reasons being is that they are not as quick in the pits, the cars don't have near the corning speed, GTS cars have less downforce, etc. I think that the Vettes completed 345 laps at LM this year compared to the 379 laps of the wnning Audi. So, it is a far chance of the Vettes competing and beating the P1 cars.

[XJR14/WSC95]

I would love to see a return of Group C/GTP (Audi, Pescarolo, Liser, Lola, Zytec.) type cars as the top class (closed top)at Le Mans. Second Class could be for production cars of a minimum of 100 units (Maserati, Corvette, Ferrari, Viper,Zonda) and a third and final class for mass produced cars(911, Astons, BMW, 360s, TVRs, Morgans and Gallardos.)

There has to be strick long term rules to maintain stability allowing for only very miner yearly rule updates(safety related). This will alow Manufactures and Customers to produce and purches cars which can enjoy a long racing life with only moderate updates.

[Nordic]

you hit the nail on the head by referring to the prototypes as formula cars with fenders

......or as I prefer to think formula cars are prototypes with the fenders taken off.

Prototypes are the pinnicle of sports car racing, there should always be scope for a private team such as zytec, Courage, Lister to create and run against the best works teams. Only having GT's would stifle that as the factory teams would dominate and control the cars used in the same way GT1 was controlled by Mercedes, Porsche etc, with only a few smaller teams coming on. Other cars that may have had potential like the F50, DB7, XK8, etc where never seriously developed, as no small team could afford to or would have been allowed to by the makers.

Have the ACO changed the rules to bar the MC12 as it's currently set up, or was the MC12 built outside the rules in the hope that the rules would be changed to allow the car in? whatever, it does highlight the fact the one set of GT/Prototype rules in the world should be enough. Then we may see the return of the Japaness teams to europe and the US with GT cars.

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by RTH
Of course by changing the cars , the circuit could be smoothed out removing all chicanes and slow corners

Jaguar have an all new all aluminium XK8 coming , the decision has now been made finally to make the F type Jaguar, Aston's DBV8 is on the way , Noble, TVR , Boxster, Corvette, Viper, Invicta , MGSV, NSX, Lotus, Morgan, all these cars and many more are in this price bracket, - nothing to stop Ferrari or anyone else offering a basic model for sale in this price range - its hardly peanuts.

What the hell is Noble, Invicta, MGSV ?
Whe have seen what can do a Morgan or a TVs versus a Porsche RSR ...

What you are describing looks like 24H Spa Francorchamps. certainlt an interesting race, but I don't move to see it (even if the way for me is shorter than to le Mans).
A formula Ford also can be a nice race;;

But if we stay with GT based cars only manufacturers producing big GT will run. and it is less expensive to develop a prototype starting from a white paper than to make a GT based prototype.

If nobody wants to developp a GT against Porsche, who will developp a protoGT?

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by RTH


Of course by changing the cars , the circuit could be smoothed out removing all chicanes and slow corners

We all have our opinions and I certainly respect everyone elses.

But, without being too rude, you're living in dream land if you think this will ever happen......

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by RTH


The reason the Le Mans 24 hr race was started in 1923 was so that street car manufacturers could prove to the world's press that their grand touring car was safe, strong ,durable ,reliable and in a race capable of beating all the opposition, and as such was the one the motorist should buy.

True.


But its now 2004.

And its a long time since Le Mans was run to this ideal.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
But, without being too rude, you're living in dream land if you think this will ever happen......

I think so. What is gone, is gone forever, and "che sera sera" for the times to come...

Le Mans went out from ashes in 1949... this race will never die, even with a full field of local privateers if necessary.

[Aysedasi]

In Citroens and Renaults?

[pounetbf]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
In Citroens and Renaults?

Nope !
in venturi's, Hommel's and Peugeot's

(but with a Clio V6, why not ...)

Or with a SERVAC....

[marcush.]

let´s applaud the ACO for keeping the prototypes alive.
Developing something like a Corvette into a LeMans winner is as expensive as building a cleansheet of paper LMP designthe only difference being the LMP has a carbonfibretub.
If you allow the GTPs to gun for the outright win,LMP will die ,
privateers will switch then to customer GTS.
As for the Maserati why would you fear it? Looking at n-technologies 575 effort I ´m not sure if the car will be that superior.
Look at the new LMP regs and you get the clue.create a stable safe aero platform equal to all cars.make sure the teams cannot run the cars lower than specified (the rule could be:car has to show a minimum rideheight of 35mm at the front axleline when both dampers springs at the front are removed from the car.the team has to prove that with constant data logging at a specified rate.)End of story

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by marcush.
let´s applaud the ACO for keeping the prototypes alive.

Absolutely.

They know the score alright.

I still maintain that more people turn out at Le Mans each year to watch prototypes than GTS/GT cars.

[gttouring]

lmp and lmGTP (like bentley) i think is the best top solution- and most fun to wacth, these cars parade around like alien gladiators brimmin with technology that makes F1 jealous. those are the real kings of LeMans.
i don't see GTS killing Prototypes, only mutating into LMGTP.
my real concern or ather hope is a healthy and more diverrse GT category. Panoz,Porsche, Morgan, and TVR, and Ferrari360 is nice, if it was evenly balanced... but 100 porsches vs. 2 of the others, oh so little video/photo and anytype of coverage for the other cars makes for a bad "traffic" category for the LMP's
do the GT cars really ever tussle on track like GTS and LMP's do? for 2 laps maybe then the teams sumble through the rest of the 23 hours.
Factories should use the GT squads as trainng grounds for crews, drivers, and have privateers fight the Noob works teams- that way the experience moves up the classes, factories are involved from the ground up and privateers can eally fight it out with a proper works team in GT (where the experience or lack of would equalize the teams)
GT is a stupendous cateory as well and so often forgotten or taken for granted (the 24 hour of Nurburgring realy doesn't help this case when it is schedualed the same day as LeMans the buffooons!)

[Aysedasi]

The GT cars do tussle quite regularly, but personally I just don't find them that interesting. I just thank my lucky stars for the occasional non-911 interlopers.......

[Cadete]

Originally posted by gttouring

i don't see GTS killing Prototypes, only mutating into LMGTP.

There is no need for GTS becoming LMGTP, because the old LMGTPs are included in the LMP1 regs, which also account for new closed prototypes.

[JAG]

Just had a quick read through the thread and there are some interesting points of view.

However, the ACO have now made it quite clear that LMPs are the No.1 class at Le Mans and thank goodness for that.

I went to the FIA GT race at Donnington, and it was great. However the lack of prototypes racing took something away from the event. The Silverstone LMES event is still the race I am looking forward to the most.

When some talk about the GTS class booming and how it should take over from the prototypes, they need to look at the history of the class. Just a few short years ago GTS was a joke and a bore fest. It was a one make Viper series with the odd 911 thrown in for good measure.

Even when GM arrived with the Vette, the Vipers almost immediately pulled out, leaving grids of 3 or 4 GTS cars in the ALMS.

It is only now that that the GTS class is starting to find its feet again, a good 5 years + after the Viper, then Vette domination happened.

Yet a couple of lean years in the LMP class and some want to scrap it, not giving the new regs any chance to bed in. I realise some US fans may be a little dissapointed with the LMP1 grids in the ALMS, but in Europe LMP1/2 is growing very quickly with great grids in the LMES.

IMO, cost is not the main issue with the lack of LMP1 cars in the ALMS, it is simply a lack of suitable road racing teams. In Europe teams like Creation, Rollcentre, Jota etc. have stepped upto the LMP1 class, with a small budget, and have shown that they can compete with the best. Were are the US teams doing this in the ALMS?

Also, in order to have a stable GT class, you HAVE to have the prototype class as well. Otherwise the likes of Toyota with no Mclaren, Zonda etc. beater have to go out and build an homologation special. Once the homologation specials start to appear the class is doomed. No more Vettes, Aston DB9s, 575s and the like.

The ACO realises you need to have the prototype class in order to accomodate the manufactuers that do not have suitable 'Supercars', and just as importantly the likes of Lola, Courage and Zytek.

[RTH]

In 2006 all LMP's will have to be designed to the new rules - the Nasamax was to those rules this year , with much shortened overhangs front and rear, high splitter & sills and central underside wooden plank - these rules together with the height of the dia of the tyre dictate that the cars in future will have a stubby and rather unattractice appearance

[JAG]

Originally posted by RTH
In 2006 all LMP's will have to be designed to the new rules - the Nasamax was to those rules this year , with much shortened overhangs front and rear, high splitter & sills and central underside wooden plank - these rules together with the height of the dia of the tyre dictate that the cars in future will have a stubby and rather unattractice appearance

Having said that I think the red works Courage LMP2 is one of the most attractive prototypes of recent years.

Also the NASAMAX, although not exactly a pretty car, is better looking than the original Reynard that it is based on.

[Garrett]

With the new rules and regulations from the ACO, the P1 and P2 cars, to me, won't be very attractive seeing what the NASAMAX car looked like this year. Hopefully, someone like Audi, Porsche, or any other manufacture can make their P1, or P2, cars look better than the NASAMAX machine!!