Safety car & multi class racing

[NaBUru38]

To prevent cars losing a lap in a pitstop during a caution period, I believe that the wavebys (or whatever they are called) should be given before opening the pitlane. And the waveby rule should say: every driver in front of their class leader can overtake the safety car and go to the back of the column - first the fastest class and last the slowest class.

As long as drivers don't push the pedal to the metal, allowing cars to overtake the safety car isn't dangerous.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by arakis

I am kind of guessing your view of racing is depicted on your avatar! your statment holds true in nascar, where the only point of the race is to see a big crash!!!!! BTW, there are a milion little things that go into someone making a gap, not only driver skill!

My answer to safty car is safer because, everyone would be in the box, and leting cars go aout after the danger has been averted is the safest way, for both marshals and drivers. as for your qouestion about cars being a lap down, that wont change, I don't see how you don't get that.--Cars are timed when they cross the start/finish line, mark the times when they crossed the line in the last lap, at set them free in order off the timings,

I hate people like you who think that all fans of NASCAR are in a race to see a crash. It is completely ignorant of someone to think that way.

Yes, I know I'm attacking the poster here and not the post, but it needs to be said.

[arakis]

fair point, I was being a bit generalistic, but to be honest I seriosly don't see any point or corelation between what is exciting in Nascar and in Sports cars, I asumed that for you as a Nascar fan excitment means constant fighting between drivers for position, while that in itself is imensly exciting in sports car racing, when it is artificialy done the joy dies down a lot;

Here is a good example:
Porsche RS Spyder vs Audi R10;

lets say the spyder some how gets into the lead, now it has to work like hell to run away from the big bad R10, but when a safty pulls out, the R10 will take the lead as soon as the green flag flies, and the spyder driver can only cry because his tires are by now too used up to make a pass on the R10 in the corrners. and thus you get a race that is totaly decided by race control.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by arakis

fair point, I was being a bit generalistic, but to be honest I seriosly don't see any point or corelation between what is exciting in Nascar and in Sports cars, I asumed that for you as a Nascar fan excitment means constant fighting between drivers for position, while that in itself is imensly exciting in sports car racing, when it is artificialy done the joy dies down a lot;

Here is a good example:
Porsche RS Spyder vs Audi R10;

lets say the spyder some how gets into the lead, now it has to work like hell to run away from the big bad R10, but when a safty pulls out, the R10 will take the lead as soon as the green flag flies, and the spyder driver can only cry because his tires are by now too used up to make a pass on the R10 in the corrners. and thus you get a race that is totaly decided by race control.

It happened at Lime Rock in 2008. The Porsche kept it's lead after all restarts.

[chernaudi]

As for the race control speed limiter deal, It may not be smart in and of itsef, but ARCA and maybe NASCAR use a system that race control turns on a light on the dashboard to indicate caution and for the drivers to slow down ASAP, as in right now.

Surprised that other racing series don't use such a feature to indicate FCY.

As to the pace car issue, IMSA tried to after the overall leaders made stops to pick up the next class leader in line that didn't pit. Seemed to work for the most part, but that system, like any, isn't 100% perfect.

[Dunlop Corner]

I is tricky to find a good solution, but something needs to be done. The way the rules are now, the lower classes are being determined by the position of the overall leader. Depending on where the overall leader is, for a GT2 car a one minute gap could either be erased or be extended to an entire lap. No such problem for LMP1, in this class the gap is erased every time. And i think a solution has to be found, where this also is the result for the other classes.

I like the idea of having cars of lower classes immidiately pass the SC if they are ahead of the class leader. Let's sayt the SC pick up the overall leader, per the rules. If you are a GT2 car, you are now allowed to pass the SC immidiately, unless of course the class leader is already in the queue. That way we can have the same rules for all classes, with a single safetycar. The drawback is that it will take an extra lap or two to open the pits. However right now it seems the SC stays out there forever for even the smallest problem on the track. Therefor i don't think this will increase the overall length of the SC period, only the time it takes to form up. Which can be a problem of course for cars sitting in the pitlane waiting for the pits to open (something has to be changed with this rule obviously), or cars running low on fuel.
I don't think it is possible to make a system that is perfect in every situation. But i feel something has to be done, particularly right now where GT2 is the most interesting class. It is not right that the tightest class is to be decided on lottery, as happened at Sebring.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As for the race control speed limiter deal, It may not be smart in and of itsef, but ARCA and maybe NASCAR use a system that race control turns on a light on the dashboard to indicate caution and for the drivers to slow down ASAP, as in right now.

Surprised that other racing series don't use such a feature to indicate FCY.

As to the pace car issue, IMSA tried to after the overall leaders made stops to pick up the next class leader in line that didn't pit. Seemed to work for the most part, but that system, like any, isn't 100% perfect.

IndyCar has used that dash light system for many years...all series should do the same, if appropriate...

However, how would you deal with local yellows? That might be a difficult one to account for with such a system...especially at a big plave like Le Mans.

[ubrben]

I fail to see how waved by cars tanking round to catch the pack is safe?

Currently my project is 2-1 down to wave-bys since the start of 2008 including last weekends fun that gave Risi a lap.

I like the idea of code-60 provided it can be implemented reasonably. I think an IMSA sanctioned GPS device and retrospective stop-gos if the limit's exceeded would be a good idea.

Ben

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by arakis

I am kind of guessing your view of racing is depicted on your avatar! your statment holds true in nascar, where the only point of the race is to see a big crash!!!!!

You clearly never watch NASCAR

[Aysedasi]

I think we ought to just leave individual's views of Nascar out of the debate and concentrate on the interesting discussions.....

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by arakis

bring everyone to pits, and let them go in intervals basted on the lap before incident! its the safest way with the least amount of posible error, of caurse keep pits closed, let only dameged cars get repaired with stop go penalety

Am I the only one who thinks that sounds awfully like what happens when there is a red flag?

I don't see much wrong with the current safety car procedure, cars are usually only waved past once the incident is cleared. There are obviously situations when some drivers benefit from the safety car, but that's (IMO) just part of the spectacle.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

IndyCar has used that dash light system for many years...all series should do the same, if appropriate...

However, how would you deal with local yellows? That might be a difficult one to account for with such a system...especially at a big plave like Le Mans.

And it was abandoned after they found race drivers would not abide by the gap rule and fudged ever closer to the car in front of them.(Indy yellows specifically) And it was abandoned again when Mario Andretti at Long Beach plowed into the back of a car that had been parked for 6 laps prior to his 'forgetting' the car was there. Curiously, perhaps that same year, Michael Andretti hit another wrecked car that was being extracted by a safety truck and crew. (possibly Detroit) Local yellows only work when they are strictly enforced.

dh

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

Curiously, perhaps that same year, Michael Andretti hit another wrecked car that was being extracted by a safety truck and crew. (possibly Detroit) Local yellows only work when they are strictly enforced.

dh

I was remembering that one Andretti ran into the back of the other one, after the first one had hit the truck.

roberto

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by skycafe

I was remembering that one Andretti ran into the back of the other one, after the first one had hit the truck.

roberto

lol! THAT was it...I only had a fragment of it left inside the 'ol noggin. ....thanks!!!!
dh

[skycafe]

I remember it was a right hand bend, but not where anymore, or even when. Tim probably knows.

I ain't even got much of a fragment left.

[Matt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwEqjuvAZzE

There ya go.

[davehenrie]

I think this is the one we remembered...

[skycafe]

Wow, that is a display of the faults of memory, I was remembering Michael running into the back of Mario, not the original car that caused the incident.

On the topic of safety car for endurance, why can't you look at two safety cars being dispatched, one on pit straight and the other roughly half-way round the circuit and they basically hold station half a lap apart?

[Birddog07]

I have an easy solution. Every car gets a light system which goes on when race control calls for a full course yellow, possibly even an audible tone in the drivers earpiece. The cars have a number of seconds to slow down, decided by race control (for track speed and maybe even class speeds aka LMP can slow faster than GT2). Once slowed down to speed, the car can't go faster untill the race is restarted under green flag. If cars fail to slow in the alloted time, then the onboard system realizes and notifies race control. Race control will know if cars don't slow down to get an advantage and penalize acordingly. Race is resumed when the overall leader crosses the line and race control turns the system off.

This seems like it would work pretty well, and it can't be too complicated to implement?

Overall though I think race control needs to stop tossing out SC's for local spin and stalls.

[dsegs]

I was just watching the 1st round of SuperGT, and even though I couldn't understand a word of what was said, the safety car procedure seemed pretty good to me. The SC was called, and it collected the overall leader. Then all cars stopped on the grid, GT500 on one side and GT300 on the other. The safety car took off again when everyone got there, GT500 went first and GT300 after that. You could easily do a class by class wave-by then, and everything would be sorted?

[Birddog07]

I've got an even better, simpler, and possibly more exciting idea. Race to the line. Full course yellow is called for and cars race to the line, SC deployed and picks up the overall leader at turn 1 and starts lapping. Cars behind will race fullspeed with respect to the danger area and slow down upon crossing the line, catch the train and fall in behind their class leaders (so a LMP2 car who crossed the line after a GT2 car will pass the GT2 car in the SC train and fall in behind the LMP2 car ahead). Restarts (and starts) also need redone IMO, the cars need formed up better and the green flag needs waved alot later sort of what happens in FIA GT series they are well on the front straight before hitting the gas. This would be alot more exciting IMO and would only bunch the field up, may be a slight advantage or disadvantage but ohwell, no magic leads of almost a lap. Restarts would be more exciting (and safer) aswell with all the classes in order, there won't be an LMP starting behind a few slower GT's and taking any possible unsafe risk to pass the traffic and catch the leader.

[Dead-Eye]

Racing to the line entirely defeats the purpose of a full course caution. If you can "race with respect to the danger area" you don't need a safety car, you use local yellows.

[Birddog07]

Well then just use local yellows? Racing to the line or not, the saefty car needs to pickup the leader at turn one and then let the cars get in class order for the restart.

Basically what SuperGT does, only they stop at the grid to form up. I guess there really is no harm in them stopping to form up, they get it right.