The one and only official 10/10ths BOP thread

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Articus

Since when is GTE a development class? It's the exact opposite. They only get a lemans aero and a non lemans aero package that they must use for the rest of the season. The end game for GTE is one where teams win based on strategy, pit stop speed and a bit of luck. ACO want all of the GTE cars to run the same ultimate lap time at every track if that was easy to achieve. I'm not against that, because that's the only thing you can do for GTE to remain sustainable considering it's not the class for the overall victory.


What you're hinting at and what we'd all like to see with GTE isn't actually sustainable nor worth it if they aren't racing for overall victory which is why it won't happen.

GTE has always been a development class. It was always about who developed the best car - that's what a development class is. It has a defined set of technical regulations, and manufacturers build the car to fit into those regulations, and the best car wins. It was never meant to be about race to race BOP - that's just what it has become.

What you're describing is GT3 - that has no real technical regulations and uses the concept of performance boxes - the car has to 'fit' into 'boxes', and when it doesn't, it's BOP'd up or down to adjust so it then fits. BOP is absolutely fine for GT3 (IMO) because that's what the entire class is based around. The fact a customer can buy almost any GT3 car, for around the same price, and know for a fact it'll perform decently well, and if it doesn't then it can be made to. That's great for customer racing. But that isn't great for factory racing.

[PascaLM]

IMO, the only BoP without controversy should be a linear scale of weight function of the displacement and turbo boost.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Torque sensors will cost just as much probably, and they don't limit top end power, just low end torque.

They aren't looking at the peak torque, they're measuring the instantaneous power at all times from the torque reading. Australian Supercars already has a stupid rule that regulates the maximum average power output across the upper part of the RPM range. In a BoP category torque sensors would give you the ability to enforce the exact power output across the entire rev range.

Once again good for making sure nobody cheated up their GT3 engine (the stated aim was letting them run more production engines rather than needing to engineer the things to work with air restrictors just to have a means of controlling performance), terrifying for a class where people are actually trying to improve technology.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The torque sensors were supposed to outright replace air restrictors, which would basically leave us with the sanctioning body controlling the performance of the engine directly. That fits with the (often forgotten) intent of GT3 to have heavily production based spec cars running together but it's not something the manufacturers were ever going to accept in GTE even with the homologated engines and constant restrictor tweaks to try to neutralize any performance improvements.

Homologation specials tend to be a failing of the homologation requirements. There's no way an ultra limited production hypercar like the Ford GT should be racing 911s and Corvettes to start with but somehow it's supposed to be a great idea because BoP will fix it. (just like it fixed the MC12 to 5 straight FIA GT championships)

That has always been an issue... not just in gtlm. In old good GT1 days there were "not so rare and expensive" dbr9 and c6r in grid with saleen s7 and maserati mc12, that basically were supercars.
Just forget about to find a logic in that.

Anyway, now that vantage shall use amg engines next year, why just don't use a 80/90kg/h fuel flow for GTLM cars too?
no need to tune the engine for restrictors or turbo pressure cut, just need to improve efficiency. The same goal of street cars which GTLM come from.

Anyway, speaking about bop, I've read on the lmp1/2 tech sheet, that there is some kind of bop for lmp2 too, with a possible 20kg ballast. Question is: WEC lmp2 weight is 900kg or 930kg?

[Akrapovic]

The LMP2 regulations allow for a BOP to be used but the ACO has bluntly said they have no intention of doing so. So as far as things stand for ELMS, WEC and ASLMS, there's no LMP2 BOP.

[carbsmith]

LMP2 weight limit is 930kg. They added 30kg when they made air conditioning mandatory.

[chernaudi]

I think that you're thinking back to 2006 when the ACO made AC or something like it mandatory and everyone had to ballast up their cars by 25kg across all classes.

The ACO lowered LMP1 minimum weight from 925-900kg in 2008, before bumping it up to 930 before LM in '09, mostly in reality to help with overweight Peugeot.

In 2011, the ACO bumped minimum weight of LMP2 up to 900kg as part of their cost cap regs. The weight increase to 930 doesn't have anything to do with AC, which has been mandated in some form for several years now (be it actual AC or cockpit ventilation). Probably has more to do with cost caps and the bump up to 600bhp from 450 with the last generation cars, as well as making LMP2 tubs DPI compatible.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

GTE has always been a development class. It was always about who developed the best car - that's what a development class is.

it used to be about which manufacturer built the best car---the cars were tuned up, lightened to whatever amount was allowed, and sent out to represent the manufacturer.

Then at some point the manufacturers realized that cubic dollars were impossible to beat ... and no matter how much they spent odds were three or four to one that a different manufacturer would win.

No factory wanted to spend a fortune and be fourth ... so the class stopped being about whoever built the rest road car, and became about how built the best racing version of a road car.

"Development," as in race-to-race modifications, have been less and less important each season, as the race cars grew more and more divorced from the road cars---again development is Very expensive and is all gambling. As the cost of building a racing version of a road car steadily increased, manufacturers wanted less and less chance they would be uncompetitive---so they wanted less development.

GTE, GT2 ... was Never a development class. it was always a waiver/BoP class. No way a 328 and a Vette and a BMW sedan could run equally unless Everyone was emasculated, and then performance dribbled back in drip by drip.

Once Bop is introduced, development is pointless ... because if a team comes up with something really good, the car will be tuned back down. The series wanted BMW, even if BMW didn't build a sports car. They wanted those Dodge Vipers, even if they were crude and unbalanced and could never compete with a Ferrari in a Real race.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It has a defined set of technical regulations, and manufacturers build the car to fit into those regulations, and the best car wins. It was never meant to be about race to race BOP - that's just what it has become.

This is totally inaccurate. Each manufacturer builds whatever car it can sell to its market: for BMW, sport sedans, for Corvette, front-engined two-seaters, for Ferrari, a smallish, mid-engined two seater---and then the series balanced them out.

It has nothing to do with building the best car the rules allow---it has everything to do with building a racing version of whatever car the manufacturer can sell successful for street use, and having the series BoP it. Remember BMWs with transaxles? Z4s with V8s?

GT has not been about who built the best GT car and then adding safety gear and racing them all ... for decades. Waivers and weight breaks and BoP is what the class is about.

if it really was about what you say ... only the Ford GT would be part of the class. It is the only car built to maximize the rules, with no concern for marketability, or rather profitable marketability.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

What you're describing is GT3 - that has no real technical regulations and uses the concept of performance boxes - the car has to 'fit' into 'boxes', and when it doesn't, it's BOP'd up or down to adjust so it then fits. BOP is absolutely fine for GT3 (IMO) because that's what the entire class is based around. The fact a customer can buy almost any GT3 car, for around the same price, and know for a fact it'll perform decently well, and if it doesn't then it can be made to. That's great for customer racing. But that isn't great for factory racing.

if you really see a huge difference between GTE (GTLM) and GT3 (GTD) then you need glasses.

GTE is just GT3 with more performance added---more developed (but still homologated, NOT developable) aero, but still totally manipulated and totally performance balanced.

A "development" class would be a class where a team could change the car between races to make it faster, without getting penalized for performance. Name any major road racing class except P1 and F1 where that holds true?