BMW the team to beat right now: Massa - Page 2

JeremySmith · 11 Feb 2007, 02:55 (Ref:1838410)

I doubt he would be there at BMW if he was overrated as you say?

flor · 11 Feb 2007, 03:00 (Ref:1838412)

Have you noticed who is driving for Toyota?

deejay · 11 Feb 2007, 04:21 (Ref:1838430)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

but actually destroys his teammate comprehensively.

Um, that's a bit fanciful.

**Bononi** · 11 Feb 2007, 10:49 (Ref:1838533)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flor

Just compare their cv's, Kubica didnt win anything of importance so far. He is probably as overrated as Webber....

There's no comparision between the two so far. Or maybe you're saying that Kubica is overrated as much as was Webber when he came to F1...

kipper · 11 Feb 2007, 11:32 (Ref:1838560)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flor

Just compare their cv's, Kubica didnt win anything of importance so far. He is probably as overrated as Webber....

But to be fair to Kubica, he has won the Renault World Series (which it and its forerunner has been won by the likes of Kovaleinen, Montagny, Zonta and Alonso and broadly speaking they turned out OK) and did well at Macau in a F3. So although he may lack as many titles as Heidfeld, I think his potential and performances last year justify his seat.

Last2LiftOff · 11 Feb 2007, 12:43 (Ref:1838596)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

When does his contract run out anyway?

2008 I reckon Mr. V.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autosport.com on September 16th, 2005

Nick Heidfeld will join BMW a year earlier than originally scheduled, with the team having concluded a three-year contract with the German driver to begin in 2006.

Sheesh, again, hunting around for an expiry date on a drivers contract. We need to be keeping track of these.....please not the 'Wiki'.

Sev · 11 Feb 2007, 14:48 (Ref:1838661)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flor

Just compare their cv's, Kubica didnt win anything of importance so far. He is probably as overrated as Webber....

That's a bit hard to really peg. Yes, until he won the WSR Kubica wasn't on anyone's radar; but that could as easily be down to a lack of budget more than anything.

On the other hand, he's been out performed by team mates twice on his route through (Briscoe and Farfus), so that's not necessarily conclusive.

EERO · 11 Feb 2007, 20:13 (Ref:1838860)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

I have nothing against (supposedly) "quick Nick" but every season i say how this is going to be a make a break season for him and with the exception of 2005, he always seem's to fail to deliever,

1998 First season in F3000 second to Montoya
1999 Dominates F3000
2000 F1 with Prost, a decent rookie season for a declining team
2001 First Podium, beats the rookie Kimi and helps sauber to 4th in WCC
2002 Reascendant Renault/Benetton passes Sauber for 4th. Beats Rookie Massa easily
2003 Mixed fortunes against HHF, The only season that can really be considered a disappointment. The Sauber was a pig and real handful.
2004 In a Jordan which barely had a right to be on the grid, he qualified brilliantly and often had the car in places it had no right to be.
2005 Two podiums including a second, a Pole and despite missing five races, beat Webber for points.
2006 New Team in process of assimilating two distinct cultures Scores first podium for BMW, would have had Pole at Monza corrected for fuel loads. Was blocked at start and dropped to eighth, was catching Alonso at 0.2 secs/ lap before first stops where he got a bum set of tires. Leads BMW to 5th in Maiden Season.. Outqualifies Kubica 5-1.

In his career, he has driven for two tailend teams, Jordan and Prost, a solid midfielder, Sauber, one team on the way down, Williams, and one on the way up, BMW Sauber.
To say that he has failed to deliver is not acknowledging the tools he has had to work with. I admit I'm a fan, and I am hopeful that he will have a great season. I admit that Kubica's performance last season, (after BMW Sauber found the pace lacking in the first part of the seaon) was impressive. But based upon experience in F1 and records in junior series Nick clearly has the edge. And then you have to factor in his very real tenacity and determination. I expect both BMW drivers to do well, but I expect that Nick will have the edge when the season is over.

amier · 11 Feb 2007, 21:59 (Ref:1838908)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper

I can certainly see BMW being in the hunt for wins and podiums on a regular basis, although I feel that they are unlikely to mount a championship challenge just yet, for I feel that they have a lot to do to overcome the current level of Ferrari and Renault. For what its worth, I suspect that it will be Kubica that will take the first win.

And what makes you so sure its not going t be Nick? the way you lot talk the Polish dude is an acclaimed WC of F1...

**Bononi** · 12 Feb 2007, 01:13 (Ref:1838954)

Quote:

Originally Posted by amier

And what makes you so sure its not going t be Nick? the way you lot talk the Polish dude is an acclaimed WC of F1...

Personal opinions ? Or maybe just a good guess ?

I'm not making predictions but anyone can throw a name or two...

Félix · 12 Feb 2007, 03:22 (Ref:1838977)

Isn't it becoming obvious that you just can't judge F1 drivers no more? Most of them are there because they've got enough talent, some other talented drivers don't make it to F1 and some pay to be there and show us what a real average driver can do in a sub-par car. But TGF has been beaten by Sato at times in 2005, Button has been nowhere at some points in his career and now we have Kubica outpacing everybody at one time or another in the few races he's run... Even when a driver can really dominate a series, he'll look average the next year because he doesn't have the best car anymore. You can rely on repeated moments of dominance or on comparatively superior performances in a given (supposedly equal) car to judge the greatness of a driver, but it might not even be apparent at all the next year...

Last2LiftOff · 12 Feb 2007, 12:48 (Ref:1839291)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Félix

Isn't it becoming obvious that you just can't judge F1 drivers no more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Félix

and show us what a real average driver can do in a sub-par car.

Pardon me Felix but, what was your point again?

karimbo · 12 Feb 2007, 16:21 (Ref:1839496)

Last year, around August or September, Karimbo was saying "just watch BMW in '07".

Now everyone seems to agree....

**Bononi** · 12 Feb 2007, 16:40 (Ref:1839509)

Karimbo who ????

2fast · 12 Feb 2007, 17:24 (Ref:1839550)

The problem with darkhorse, once you identify one it no longer is...

BMW had a history of impressive pre-season runs many times, how is this any different than before? I root for the boys in blue, but the BMW engine has to be as bullet proof as Ferrari or the Reanult's before even mentioning them in the same sentence...to be almost as fast as Mclaren with the same reliability will not win championships.

Knowlesy · 12 Feb 2007, 17:39 (Ref:1839562)

Quote:

Originally Posted by karimbo

Last year, around August or September, Karimbo was saying "just watch BMW in '07".

Now everyone seems to agree....

You weren't the only one.

f1manoz · 12 Feb 2007, 19:17 (Ref:1839633)

I fully expect BMW to be right up the front this season. BMW are out to prove something after a season of consolidation with Sauber in 2006. The car looks quick, they have two talented drivers in Heidfeld and Kubica, and everything seems to be falling into place.

Add to that the playing field has levelled thanks to so many movements of drivers that it is a very open field, at least for the beginning of the season.

And, more to the point, I hope (expect?) a win and a few podiums for Nick this year. After years of scratching around for results in mostly ordinary machinery, this year will be the first time that he may finally be at the wheel of a race-winning car.

strider · 18 Feb 2007, 03:25 (Ref:1844112)

A reliable source suggests that the view within the team is that Kubica is the one to watch. At the moment there are some concerns about the gearbox, but hopefully they can sort those out.

deejay · 18 Feb 2007, 10:42 (Ref:1844228)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EERO

2005 ... despite missing five races, beat Webber for points.

Just like to point out this isn't actually true.

2005

Webber. 34 points
Heidfeld. 28 points

Webber of course did get 3 points finishes when Heidfeld was injured. But he was also driving a lot better himself by that stage of the season so may have outscored Heidfeld regardless.

That season the results were inconclusive as to which driver was better should be considered a draw I believe.

Mr V · 18 Feb 2007, 11:15 (Ref:1844247)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deejay

Just like to point out this isn't actually true.

2005

Webber. 34 points
Heidfeld. 28 points

Webber of course did get 3 points finishes when Heidfeld was injured. But he was also driving a lot better himself by that stage of the season so may have outscored Heidfeld regardless.

That season the results were inconclusive as to which driver was better should be considered a draw I believe.

It's a shame that Nick missed those 5 races so we would have had a proper outcome!

All we can go on is statistics....

Webber 1.89 points per race
Heidfeld 2.15 points per race

As you say, Mark was driving better when he got those points finishes towards the end of the season, but who knows, Nick may have been driving better himself.

All i will say is, Nick being out for those races may have done Mark's reputation more good than harm.

Sodemo · 18 Feb 2007, 13:11 (Ref:1844320)

I hope BMW have a good year, it would be good to see a new team at the top.

EERO · 19 Feb 2007, 16:46 (Ref:1845621)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deejay

Just like to point out this isn't actually true.

2005

Webber. 34 points
Heidfeld. 28 points

Webber of course did get 3 points finishes when Heidfeld was injured. But he was also driving a lot better himself by that stage of the season so may have outscored Heidfeld regardless.

That season the results were inconclusive as to which driver was better should be considered a draw I believe.

I stand, (or rather "sit" as I type this) corrected.

dcp2685 · 20 Feb 2007, 18:57 (Ref:1846662)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

It's a shame that Nick missed those 5 races so we would have had a proper outcome!

All we can go on is statistics....

Webber 1.89 points per race
Heidfeld 2.15 points per race

As you say, Mark was driving better when he got those points finishes towards the end of the season, but who knows, Nick may have been driving better himself.

All i will say is, Nick being out for those races may have done Mark's reputation more good than harm.

Lets not forget that Webber was in line for a 2nd place or at least sure 3rd at monaco before that dreadful Williams expired.

Mr V · 20 Feb 2007, 20:37 (Ref:1846730)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcp2685

Lets not forget that Webber was in line for a 2nd place or at least sure 3rd at monaco before that dreadful Williams expired.

Err, wrong year, in 2005 (the year we are taklking about) the Williams finished 2nd and 3rd, with Nick ahead and Mark seemingly very disappointed.

You are talking about 2006.

Andrew2001 · 21 Feb 2007, 08:36 (Ref:1847046)

Yep I'd love to see BMW Sauber up at the front. All the best to them.

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