Montoya exclusion. Why after 50+ laps????

[Led ZeppF1]

I just wonder was why it took so long for the Williams's team to make a decision to get JPM in the spare car. :confused:

[avsfan733]

I am willing to bet there was a good bit of confusion as to exactly when JPM left the grid as there was no TV coverage of it until he was actually clear and they probably just wanted to be absolutely sure

[Gt_R]

And i would believe some Williams guys would be busy trying to argue with FIA for JPM to be allowed to race.

[Neil Warland]

Originally posted by Led ZeppF1
I just wonder was why it took so long for the Williams's team to make a decision to get JPM in the spare car. :confused:

Cars are normally started at about the 30 second board - you can't leave them running stationary for very long. From what Martin Brundle said, the starter drive-shaft broke off when they tried to start JPM's car. Once they realised what had broken, they told JPM to get out of the car and off the grid. But all this had to happen before the 15 second board.

[Gt_R]

And its a decent rule that people have to follow for safety's sake i suppose...

[Redlake27]

So many parallels to Canada...

Shame on the officials.........

At Canada they took 24 hours to exclude cars they had under lock and key the night before in parc ferme. In USA they took an hour to read the rules.

Shame on Williams.........

A team that used to have so much integrity. Now, two rule contraventions in 7 days.

[Neil Adams]

i think its pathetic!
at the end of the day they're supposed to providing a motorrace to take a perfectly healthy car out of a race of for such a petty error is just daft.

IMO a stalled car on the grid for the start of the green flag lap should be treated the same way as for the race start i.e. waved yellow flags from the pitwall and delay the start of the lap / race then we wouldnt have this problem.

I mean what is the point! they should be awarding williams for getting montoya running before for the start of the race not penalising them.

The rules should help teams to get their cars into the race not the reverse.

grrr!!!

[Gt_R]

Honestly, i'm not an expert at all this small details about rules..

But from what i know (do correct me if i'm wrong), the rules is there for safety purpose..the last thing that FIA wants is a car accelerating off line and suddenly hit one guy who decides to run across it.

In any case, it's a rule which has been there before the race. Williams flout it and got the just punishment.

It's unfortunate that FIA took an afternoon to decide the execution, that the efforts of JPM is wasted, but the team ought to have seen it coming anyway.

What i'm equally concerned, as in Canada, is that FIA allowed cars which are effectively "out" to run on the circuit for so long...and potentially could have played a part in affecting the results...

Eg. If Juan ran in the race, fights for 3rd position with Sato, and Sato and Juan collide...Sato out of the race...then comes along the decision to black flag Juan for an infringment at the race-start..it's very unfair to the legitimate runners on the track.

FIA needs to review their system. The penalties isn't the problem, it's the procedure and speed of opertation which is the problem. But maybe stewards are too busy handling the many incidents such as Ralf's accident that Juan's case got delayed.

The rules should be fair, not tuned to increase action as and when FIA pleases...so in that respect, i stand by FIA's decision to award the penalty.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Led ZeppF1
I just wonder was why it took so long for the Williams's team to make a decision to get JPM in the spare car. :confused:

According to one of the dutch reporters, they seemed to have had some trouble in starting the car.

Then when they had the engine running, they couldn't get the starting engine out.

By the time they managed to extract the starting engine, the engine had stopped running.

So I guess after that, they tried to use the second starting engine. They couldn't insert it (maybe because of damage while extracting the first one).


That might explain why they were late.

[Don K]

Originally posted by Gt_R
What i'm equally concerned, as in Canada, is that FIA allowed cars which are effectively "out" to run on the circuit for so long...and potentially could have played a part in affecting the results...

Eg. If Juan ran in the race, fights for 3rd position with Sato, and Sato and Juan collide...Sato out of the race...then comes along the decision to black flag Juan for an infringment at the race-start..it's very unfair to the legitimate runners on the track.

If I remember correctly, there has been a case in which a driver was black flagged, the driver used the laps he was allowed to stay on track before coming in, and an accident happened involving that car and a car that did have a chance of winning that race and/or the WDC.

Some time in the 80's, iirc.

[Super Tourer]

I think when the race is up and running, these type of penalties should be included in the 'driver conduct' ones that are applied at the following race, not during the current race. The whole point of these was so that a drivers race would not be affected by a stewards decision until after the race had finished.

Taking so long to decide or inform the team, they should have let JPM continue and then apply any penalty to the next race, which you could argue should be a team penalty anyway - so a fine or WCC points deducted.

To let a driver race for so long and then black flag him is ridiculous. The FIA and stewards need to wake up to what's happening in the real world, some aspects of the USGP already looked badly managed - to disqualify a driver after some 50 laps of racing for an infringement occuring in a 15 seond window, before the race had even started - just added to the incredulity of what we were seeing.

[Redlake27]

I think you are thinking of Portugal in 1989. Mansell was blackflagged, but took Senna out of the race.

[Gt_R]

and i believe such things shouldn't be allowed to happen. Hence i am concerned that in Canada, FIA allowed 4 illegal cars to run (potentially risking the legal rivals) and again allowed a car which should have been disqualified right from the start to even complete half the distance of USGP

[BootsOntheSide]

The FIA have looked like a bunch of rank amateurs in teh last few races. Montoya was only 2-3 seconds late to get out of the car, and surely the fact that he was ahvigna great race and providing much of the excitement should come first above somethign so petty.

And before anyone mentions the tragedies in 'similar' cirtcumstances many years ago, the system of having waved yellows next to any stalled car takes care of this. The rule seems very outdated, and surely Montoya's chances suffered enough by him having to go to the back.

Even once we establish that the disqualification was within the (stupid IMHO) rules, the delay in administering it was ridiculous. I can onyl assuem that he was kept in so as to provide some thrills for his many fans in teh US,a dn the Columbians who made the trip and added so much passion, colour and character to the event.

[Gt_R]

Quote: " surely the fact that he was ahvigna great race and providing much of the excitement should come first above somethign so petty."

He shouldn't even be "providing..excitement" in the first place Anyway, Sato seem to do a great job in that respect.

[f1manoz]

Pathetic stewarding. Pick your act up guys! Leaving a guy to race out on the track for 50 laps, after all the chaos that went on, and then black-flag him... JPM would have every right to knock their teeth in. And he'd do it if given the chance.

[Kicking-back]

The black flag was correct.

As for why it didn't come quicker - the first lap crash then Ralf's incident probably took up a lot of the stewards time and attention.

[garcon]

Does anybody know if there's any truth in Brundle's comments? He was saying he thought there was a time limit of twenty minutes or something from the announcement "the stewards are investigating an incident involving car #n" to the actual decision (in this case the black flag). Martin may have been wrong - he didn't have the rule book in front of him - but he isn't often.

Struck me that it may depend on the severity of the offence/penalty - i.e. a drive through for speeding in the pitlane would have to be issued within twenty minutes, but a black flag for any reason would have no time limit. Purely speculation on my part, though...
:confused:

[Mr V]

You honestly believe the incidents took up an hour and a half of the FIA's time?

What about the 20 minute rule that Martin Brundle mentioned? The FIA have 20 minutes to exclude a car, from it's first notification, the exclusion was announced after 26 minutes, surely this was wrong?

[garcon]

Great minds think alike!

(So do ours!)

[Gt_R]

Heh..it seems like the only thing worth contending is whether JPM should be black flagged earlier or later and boy..it's a funny thing to debate for 3 pages..

Okie okie..JPM should have been shown the flag earlier...at least he could go for a shower and a tea instead of driving around.

[Mr V]

The Ferrari's might have been able to slow down earlier too

[Mr V]

Originally posted by garcon
Martin may have been wrong - he didn't have the rule book in front of him - but he isn't often.

Judging by the fact that he recited Article 85, i'm sure he did have the rulebook in front of him, that, or he's got a bloody good memory

[Spudgun]

Originally posted by Mr V
You honestly believe the incidents took up an hour and a half of the FIA's time?

What about the 20 minute rule that Martin Brundle mentioned? The FIA have 20 minutes to exclude a car, from it's first notification, the exclusion was announced after 26 minutes, surely this was wrong?

We were talking about the 20 minute thing earlier in the thread. After consulting the regs, it was found that the 20 minute rule doesn't appear to be in the 2004 regs.

I thought I was going crazy, but it looks like they were a bit sneaky taking that one out.

[badoer fan]

I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this yet... Perhaps the FIA did not notice it at the start, and were only informed of it later in the race by one of the other teams... That could explain why it seemingly took so long.