The RS Spyder "Gentleman" story

[JAG]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

So with the weight gain for the P2s and weight loss for the P1s, there should be technically no threat to the P1 class of being humiliated - so why do you need a rule about driver abilities in either class? Surely it's up to the teams to get value out of winning their classes?

I still say this is a ridiculous idea. Maybe they could have driving tests before the season and anyone who does laps of Ricard over a certain time are classified gentlemen and anyone who laps under that time is a pro?

Reminds me of the 3:50 lap time rule in GT1. Amazing how Corvette could lap at 3:50.1 all day in 2005/6, and the Astons would do occasional 3:47s just to offset their 3:51s to keep up... Thankfully that rule has proven to be unworkable, just as a "gentleman driver" rule in P2 will prove unworkable.

It's a short term workaround to ensure a thriving P2 class is not descimated by a single, factory backed, all pro, Porsche team. I'm sure they're not going to put a dud in the car, most of the other P2 cars have gentleman drivers, such as RML, they're all very capable.

In the unlilely event they aren't competitive I'm sure they'll be allowed two full pros.

In the ALMS John Field's a quick gentleman driver, you could even argue Chris Dyson was a gentleman driver who's had the time to work on his driving.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by GTfour

"If you want to compete for overall wins, go to P1, simple really"

I disagree,since there´s no team in P1 able to offer any competition to the 908´s it´s seems to me that it´d be a good idea to spicen things up with a car that can,be it a P1 or P2 shouldn´t matter.

This makes me remember a whining and threatening Dr Ullrich of Audi´s race department,who was going on about how unfair it was that the RS Spyders and new Acura´s were getting so close to,and beating his beloved R10´s...
The guy was literelly threatening to pull his cars out of the ALMS if he wouldn´t get it his way!

Neither would the Porsche at 825kg, but it could destroy P2, the ACO's stated home for smaller privateers.

It's quite simple, the ALMS has to prop up P1 with Porsche and Acura P2's, and it's working.

In the LMS P1 and P2 are thriving as independant classes, manufactuers can spend at will in P1, but the ACO have always stated they'll intervene in P2.

12 months down the line we'll have a better understanding how competitive Lola, Zytek etc. are against the Porsche in P2, maybe the worries for nothing.

There are more fundamental issues to get heat up about rather than slighly differing interpretations of what the P2 class's role is on either side of the Atlantic.

[GTfour]

I hope so,because in the LMS there´s hardly any competition at the front whilst the ALMS is a hairraising and hardfought spectacle...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by GTfour

I hope so,because in the LMS there´s hardly any competition at the front whilst the ALMS is a hairraising and hardfought spectacle...

We need a little perspective, think back how utterly awful the battles at the head of the field in the ALMS were for a 3-4 year period, one year of great racing and it's all forgetten.

Likewise one year of poor LMS racing, the previous 3 years of great racing is forgotten.

Just as the ALMS teams had to come to terms with factory competition from Audi in P1, Corvette in GT1, and Porsche in GT2, so will the LMS.

It's no coincidence Oreca linked with Courage, Salunier with Pescaolo, Creation with AIM, rumours of Charouz looking at a Peugeot, Audi reportedly coming etc.

It's growing pains............for far too long this sport has been dogged by short term thinking, one poor season and we're doomed etc.

Time to look at the bigger picture.

[canam]

P Peter is only echoing what the ACO want to see...privateers in P2 and not behind the scenes 'works' efforts. Just because there has been good racing for one season in the ALMS because two manufacturers and 4 teams are 'works' efforts in LMP2 does not justify a major change in strategy. It only reflects the ALMS's persistent weakness to attract broad and strong grids. It only takes two strong cars to make a good race after all but does very little for the overall spectacle...a feature we rarely had within the LMS even with the Pugs since they had reliability issues.

IMO a Penske-type operation would not only decimate P2 in the LMS but would also create havoc within P1. Interlagos revealed that the Creation ran pretty much the similar pace as the Pesca yet the Creation was 1-2 seconds off the pace of the Penskes at PLM and Laguna. Circuit differences aside, I believe the Penskes would have had the measure of most of the P1 cars in LMS this year. Next year, the reg changes will help, but the likes of the Penske porkers would still be hugely competitive in Europe.

The LMS are building a broader franchise that does not have to depend on the likes of Mr Panoz's wallet. It may not be what some would like to see but has been successful in generating the highest level of prototype activity for more than a decade.

Force the manufacturers into P1 where they should be. The ACO has stated what it likes to see. It is an invitation series and they decide on who gets to play.

[JHamilton]

This is a ridiculous desicion. Just because you have pro drivers doesn't make it a works team. How can you make a decision about a car or team before they ever hit the track? Penske is a completely different operation, reference Dyson for a good comparison.

[Hugewally]

I agree. I think most are missing the point as this has nothing to do with the ALMS, manufacturers vs privateers, overall wins vs class wins, P1 vs P2, etc. Its about a team running an available car but being told not to run too fast, less they start beating up on the other children already playing in the sandbox who might not be as fast.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by canam

IMO a Penske-type operation would not only decimate P2 in the LMS but would also create havoc within P1. Interlagos revealed that the Creation ran pretty much the similar pace as the Pesca yet the Creation was 1-2 seconds off the pace of the Penskes at PLM and Laguna. Circuit differences aside, I believe the Penskes would have had the measure of most of the P1 cars in LMS this year. Next year, the reg changes will help, but the likes of the Penske porkers would still be hugely competitive in Europe.

So what you're saying is, the P2s must have a sandbagger in the car to not threaten the less professional P1 entrants?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

So what you're saying is, the P2s must have a sandbagger in the car to not threaten the less professional P1 entrants?

This has zero to do with P1 (IMO), but a need to protect a thriving P2 class from a potential manufactuer backed, 2 pro car, which is not the ACO's idealistic view of P2.

As I say, the fears may be unfounded, and the Spyder, outside of Penskes car, may not be a huge step up compared to the Zyteks and Lolas.

The 50kg weight increase should take the edge of all P2 cars, not just the Porsche, remember the LNT Zytek was a front runner at Silverstone

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by WouterM

Last time I checked, Peugeot didn't run in the P2 class.

Obviously gwyllion knows this and was making the point that in his opinion if you have such a silly rule then it should be applied to all (classes).

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by JAG

The 50kg weight increase should take the edge of all P2 cars, not just the Porsche, remember the LNT Zytek was a front runner at Silverstone

Right, and that should be enough to preserve "best in class" honours for those who will settle for them - the assumption being that manufacturers want "best overall."

[canam]

I am saying that I agree with the ACO's desire to see the P2 class as a non professional class. If Porsche wants to race with an all pro line-up, go to P1. Simple. Same with Acura. It is then up to the other P1 runners to determine what they want to do ie. raise their game, go to P2 or go home.

Leave P2 alone for the non-pros. Porsche want their cake and eat it despite the collateral damage it can cause. The owners of the series (where there is over-subscription for entries) decide. It is their nickle, dime and dollar. They take the risk and they believe the risk is too great. The series has grown only because of the people you seem to deride and the owners of the LMS know it. It will only be able to continue with the ongoing support of those same people. It simply is not worth the risk and not in the spirit of the long-run development of the series as the ACO sees that development.

[brielga]

Any car in P1 is allowed to run with pros, regardless of manufacturer.
Any privateer in P2 should be allowed the same, especially with the new rules.

What is wrong here? Can't Porsche (or Audi or Pesca or Peugeot) manufacture a P2? And if it is much quicker than the others, why sandbag it? This is no undercover works effort like Penske, no need to force this restriction on VM.

Like Vic Elford said, the times of fair and square racing are long gone...

[Dani Filth]

they are allowed .. they're just not going to be invited to race in LMS ..
it's bit a fair "rule" .. but i find if acceptable

[paul-collins]

can-am, I'm not deriding the entrants, I'm just attacking the notion that they should be granted a chance to win over others in a supposedly professional sport just based on participation.

If the impetus to Porsche (or any other manufacturer) is overall wins, then the adjustment of rules (edit: technical rules) should discourage them from funding a fully pro team. I believe the ACO is right to do this for their fields, as they have a much larger pro-am base to protect and nurture - but I also believe that the ALMS is correct to not force this on their own entrants for 2008 for entirely different reasons.

However, social engineering rules are unworkable at best, and I don't see why a team with a better car (by rules - by which I mean a P1) should be protected from being beaten by a lesser car, better run. Which is effectively the point, is it not?

I mean, seriously, what is the impetus for Porsche to run a P2 factory effort in the LMS when they'll have the additional ballast and be running against a lighter (900kg) and more powerful (gasoline, anyway) P1 field than they did in 2007?

Or should I assume we'll see "gentleman driver" regulations in GT2 soon also?

[SebringMG]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

they are allowed .. they're just not going to be invited to race in LMS ..
it's bit a fair "rule" .. but i find if acceptable

And Embassy running two pros is somehow ok ? Sorry it is all BS !!

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by canam

I am saying that I agree with the ACO's desire to see the P2 class as a non professional class. If Porsche wants to race with an all pro line-up, go to P1. Simple. Same with Acura. It is then up to the other P1 runners to determine what they want to do ie. raise their game, go to P2 or go home.

Leave P2 alone for the non-pros. Porsche want their cake and eat it despite the collateral damage it can cause. The owners of the series (where there is over-subscription for entries) decide. It is their nickle, dime and dollar. They take the risk and they believe the risk is too great. The series has grown only because of the people you seem to deride and the owners of the LMS know it. It will only be able to continue with the ongoing support of those same people. It simply is not worth the risk and not in the spirit of the long-run development of the series as the ACO sees that development.

That major problem here (as PC said) is that you're dealing with a professional sport. Privateer and professional do not have the same meaning. You can be one or both, but being one doesn't automatically make you both.

What would one say to Radical running with two pro drivers in the P2 class? Or Embassy, Arena, Zytek - the list goes on.

[Dani Filth]

and they just happen to whip Audi R10 asses too

[canam]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

can-am, I'm not deriding the entrants, I'm just attacking the notion that they should be granted a chance to win over others in a supposedly professional sport just based on participation.

If the impetus to Porsche (or any other manufacturer) is overall wins, then the adjustment of rules (edit: technical rules) should discourage them from funding a fully pro team. I believe the ACO is right to do this for their fields, as they have a much larger pro-am base to protect and nurture - but I also believe that the ALMS is correct to not force this on their own entrants for 2008 for entirely different reasons.

However, social engineering rules are unworkable at best, and I don't see why a team with a better car (by rules - by which I mean a P1) should be protected from being beaten by a lesser car, better run. Which is effectively the point, is it not?

I mean, seriously, what is the impetus for Porsche to run a P2 factory effort in the LMS when they'll have the additional ballast and be running against a lighter (900kg) and more powerful (gasoline, anyway) P1 field than they did in 2007?

If manufacturers run where they should be running (P1), then the problem does not emerge as the non-pro is unlikely to have much of a chance of winning overall. Those who choose to run in P1 know the odds but relish to opportunity to beat the 'works' efforts. Additionally, we are not talking about Porsche outpacing P1 teams that are 5 seconds off the pace We are talking about an all-pro P2 car outpacing an all-pro P1 car at the front! That should not be allowed to happen.

I totally agree that the LMS and ALMS need to provide for their own racer groups and do not have a problem with that. The ALMS 'problem' will, hopefully be short term in nature and the manufacturers will move into P1.

The rebalancing between P1 and P2 will help the diesels vis a vis Penske but Lola, Pesca, Zytek and Creation still have to do a lot of work if they are not to get their backside solidly kicked by the Penskes in 2008. Not so easy on a limited budget.

As to the other comment about Zytek, Embassy, Essex etc running all pro line-ups in P2: I think it should be frowned upon and priority entries should be given to pro-am line-ups.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Right, and that should be enough to preserve "best in class" honours for those who will settle for them - the assumption being that manufacturers want "best overall."

I understand what you're saying, it's not ideal, the Porsche teams are going to put quick 'gentleman' drivers in their cars, so it's likely just a nod in the direction of other P2 teams the series is looking out for them.

Really, is it any different from IMSA changing restrictor/fuel tank etc. size to balance cars, and help smaller privateers.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by JAG

Really, is it any different from IMSA changing restrictor/fuel tank etc. size to balance cars, and help smaller privateers.

I believe so, because it's telling them not to be the best they can be.

[Purist]

I almost hope Porsche delivers this gentleman in charge an ultimatum, "Stop with the BS in LMS if you EVER care to see us in LMP1. We've expanded our product line into SUVs with the Cayanne, and have a four-seater, the Panamera, in the pipeline. You need us in your series FAR more than we need to be in your series. Heck, Ferrari hasn't gone beyond 2+2s, but they don't even bother with sportscar anymore as a factory and just stick to F1."

There is no basis to assume the RS Spyder in private hands will obliterate the LMP2 field: look at Dyson. Heck, wasn't the P2 Zytek running better at PLM than the #16 and #20? It's also funny that people claim this factory involvement has killed P2. P2 was an utter joke before Penske, and then Acura, arrived. A "last man standing" class would be generous at times. Mid-Ohio 2005 saw the LMP2 winner not even finish the race! There were perhaps 4 or 5 LMP2s before this influx; now we have 8-10 regularly, and even the VDS Radical has shown good pace with Pecorari behind the wheel. And it would be utterly suicidal to tick off Porsche as they're the only ones likely to provide top-level customer cars in significant numbers to the class. They're certainly the only major manufacturer who have sold any; Acura and Mazda haven't sold any yet (and I'm not counting on seeing any to be honest).

This driver stuff is BS. How do you decide what category a driver falls into? How do you have real balance if you arbitrarily choose who can have the most capable pilots? How is the competition meaningful with a decree like this. And JAG, we are NOT talking about a works Porsche LMP2 effort, sheesh! Porsche hasn't picked up the cheque for Penske to even go to Le Mans, let alone do the entire LMS! As such, it is ludicrous to bring such a possibility up. Unless Martini, Kremer, or someone else of that caliber, besides Joest of course, comes out of the woodwork, such a program will NOT materialize.

I might also note that if you neuter the present privateers, you may set yourself up for a slaughter down the line if better privateers clean house with seemingly identical equipment to that which you thought was relatively middle-of-the-road. The same could also happen in a relative sense if the factories do show up in LMP1, because they'll make the entire LMP2 class look like a joke, and make people watching wonder why those cars are even out on track. And I still have a great deal of doubt concerning Porsche actually going into LMP1. If they don't, it's only a matter of time until the next bust in that class, which will come when Audi, Peugeot, etc leave (without having provided any, or VERY few, customer cars). And even a customer car, without the factory support of the kind you get from Porsche, may not be enough to keep up in the long run with the works Zyteks, Creations, and Pescarolos.

[canam]

Originally Posted by Purist

I almost hope Porsche delivers this gentleman in charge an ultimatum, "Stop with the BS in LMS if you EVER care to see us in LMP1. We've expanded our product line into SUVs with the Cayanne, and have a four-seater, the Panamera, in the pipeline. You need us in your series FAR more than we need to be in your series...."

As much as the ACO would like to see Porsche field a P1 car, the series has done pretty well without a single Porsche prototype. In fact, it has done so well to be able to field the equivalent of an entire ALMS grid with prototypes alone...and not a Porsche to be found. Need them??? Nah.

I find it truly ironic that 'they' complain about the diesel regs in P1 and win most of the races in the USA against a diesel using a P2 machine.

[Purist]

Canam,. I've said this in other threads and I will reiterate. The P2s, first and foremost, don't stand a snowball's chance in Hades of winning Le Mans outright. The more important issue is that P2s are capable of being faster than the Audis and Peugeots in places on the racetrack where NO LMP1, diesel or petrol, will be able to match them on pace. NO LMP1 can currently go through Turn 2 at Mosport flat-out; those high-speed corners at Mosport in genral are a great illustration.

The ACO messed up if they wanted LMP2 to be slower in all cases. They didn't compensate the lower weight with a clearly lower powr-to-weight ratio, with equal or inferior braking power given their weight, or with equal or inferior grip in the corners given their lower weight.

Now, the LMS doesn't have to deal with the FIA SCC while the ALMS has GA. The ALMS has 12 races (becaue the market demands it for the series to get real attention here), while the LMS only has 6, and only 5 of those were really fully attended by the participants. Most of the participating manufacturers and car builders are based in Europe. And for a similar land area, Europe has roughly 800 million people to just 300 million in the US. Of course the LMS field is larger given all of that. I wonder how many cars would be in the LMS if the motorsport climate over there required a "top-tier" series to run the 12 races that the ALMS does.

It's a bit hard to compare the prototype fields between the two series since the LMS series has only had one year of this LMP1 domination to deal with. Give it a few more years, and the LMP1 privateer ranks WILL shrink noticeably. Also, aside from the lone Radical, there is no crossover between the LMP2 machinery in the ALMS and the LMS, at least through this past season. There weren't any straight Lolas, Zyteks, Pilbeams, etc as regular participants in the ALMS LMP2 class in 2007. Conversely, there were no Mazdas, Porsches, or Acuras in the LMS LMP2 class in 2007.

Sure, there was a good LMP2 class in the LMS in 2007, by the numbers. While they got along without Porsche, Porsche brings a potently fast, AND reliable car to the class. Penske proved that the RS Spyder can run an endurance race distance at pace. Now, obviously most teams aren't Penske, but that doesn't change the fact that the machine proved its worth and capabilities in a long-distance race and not just in the sprints. I doubt that most of the LMP2 machinery in the LMS will be as effective as the RS Spyder, especially with the latest updates and an engine package and set-up suited to the European series. Let's face it, the other customer cars have to be compromised in that the chassis has to be able to accept multiple engines.

I will go back and say though that even with that last point, it is hardly a given that the Porsche will clean clocks right out of the box. The Zyteks have shown pace, and the team MUST be capable.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by canam

As much as the ACO would like to see Porsche field a P1 car, the series has done pretty well without a single Porsche prototype. In fact, it has done so well to be able to field the equivalent of an entire ALMS grid with prototypes alone...and not a Porsche to be found. Need them??? Nah.

I find it truly ironic that 'they' complain about the diesel regs in P1 and win most of the races in the USA against a diesel using a P2 machine.

Yep!!

L.P.