[Rules] If $100,000 can buy you 7 points, just what are the rules for the rest of the season?

[scuderus]

In regards to a penalty - if found guilty post race, just swap them back around and still give the $100k fine

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

From the conversations its ludicrous to suggest Alonso is an innocent party in all this.

Didnt Fernando start the ball rolling by telling the team that Felipe was slower than him and delaying him, basically asking for the team to intervene. Going from memory I do certainly recall a pre order whinge from Alonso to the pitwall. Following on from which was the message from Smedley to Massa....

Im happy to be corrected if my memory has let me down.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by E.B

Didnt Fernando start the ball rolling by telling the team that Felipe was slower than him and delaying him, basically asking for the team to intervene. Going from memory I do certainly recall a pre order whinge from Alonso to the pitwall. Following on from which was the message from Smedley to Massa....

Im happy to be corrected if my memory has let me down.

No... your memory is correct.....

[Born Racer]

Whilst I agree with you that Alonso wasn't innocent, was there any radio conversation transmitted with him telling them Massa should move over. I only recall the "This is ridiculous" one. However, there are probably a load more which are more telling.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Whilst I agree with you that Alonso wasn't innocent, was there any radio conversation transmitted with him telling them Massa should move over. I only recall the "This is ridiculous" one. However, there are probably a load more which are more telling.

You can go to http://www.formula1.com/video/ and click on the official race video edit..... just click on the German GP button on the menu (not the onboard), at whatever quality you want to watch / listen in.

This what I hear:

Alonso very clearly set the wheels in motion for the switch. This is the order of events and comments as per the video

Alonso to his engineer Andrea Stella, “I am much faster than Felipe,” ........

Andrea Stella then replies: “We got your message.”

Smedley is then heard saying to Massa: “You need to pick up the pace, because Fernando is faster.”

As Alonso tried to pass Massa at one stage just prior to the 'strategy change' Smedley said to Felipe: “Pretty close here, he’s gonna go–you’re going to have to defend”.

Alonso complains that his inability to overtake his team-mate was “ridiculous.” (along with associated toys falling out of pram type noises )

Then of course we had the crunch line from Smedley to Felipe..... “Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood that message?”

Soon after that that time Massa slowed dramatically, pulled to the side of the track and allowed Alonso to pass, resuming racing speed in Alonso's wake.

This was then followed up by Smedley to Felipe with the apology, the thanks to Felipe for playing the game, and of course we also had the 'very very magnanimous' comment from Smedley.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by E.B

.... and wont this discussion liven up if Alonso were to win the WDC by less than 7 points!

This is fast becoming my favoured result. Well maybe winning by 1 point and Massa lets him through a few more times this year. Head shrapnel everywhere!

[Wims]

Im sure they had been talking about this in the Ferrari factory beforehand. If the driver ahead is slower than the one behind then he would have to let the guy behind through. Alonso informed the team that he was much faster and that it was ridiculous that Massa didnt let him through. Smedley told Massa to turn up the wick, which he was not able to do, then he told him to GTFO of the way, and that he was very magnanymous in his way of doing it.

But all this doesnt matter when we discuss which driver to penalize. Alonso simply drove his race while Massa pulled over and let him by according to the team orders. Massa was technically the one who broke the rule and is the only party eligible for a penalty, except for the team itself of course. No matter how much you hate Alonso, the fact of the matter is that Alonso simply drove his race while Massa followed the team orders

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Wims

Im sure they had been talking about this in the Ferrari factory beforehand. If the driver ahead is slower than the one behind then he would have to let the guy behind through. Alonso informed the team that he was much faster and that it was ridiculous that Massa didnt let him through. Smedley told Massa to turn up the wick, which he was not able to do, then he told him to GTFO of the way, and that he was very magnanymous in his way of doing it.

But all this doesnt matter when we discuss which driver to penalize. Alonso simply drove his race while Massa pulled over and let him by according to the team orders. Massa was technically the one who broke the rule and is the only party eligible for a penalty, except for the team itself of course. No matter how much you hate Alonso, the fact of the matter is that Alonso simply drove his race while Massa followed the team orders

The rule is against team orders, not against moving over for your team mate.
It is the team which broke the rule, not Massa, and that is why they could be fined $100,000, because both cars were involved. (the maximum fine the stewards can have on any one entry is $50,000).

If the FIA had wanted to penalise the team by putting a time penalty on Alonso (in effect overturning the team order) they could have done so.

[E.B]

Surely the manner in which the pass was engineered, by Massa alone, by making it it plain and obvious to hundreds of millions of viewers and fans was the main reason that the FIA and fans reacted to the whole incident.

The manner in which Massa used was unsubtle and underlined what the team had put in place. Massa could have allowed Alonso pass him in a much more subtle manner, indeed an instruction by the team for Massa to simply 'save fuel, go to setting X until we are back on the fuel plan' type of method seemingly favoured by other teams is capable of causing the slowing of one car sufficiently for the other (not on a fuel restriction order) team car to pass untroubled.

In a nutshell, and let me say firstly Felipe had mitigating circumstances and reason to be ****ed off, but the reality is that the execution of the manoeuvre is what brought the sport into disrepute. The wording used by Ferrari could have been a little more ambiguous also.

IMO they are all as a team guilty, from Alonso for suggesting that Felipe should be ordered to let him pass, to the team for the wording and general conveying of the message and of course Felipe for the unsubtle execution of the order.

Of course Alonso has not been averse to requesting the team to order a teamate to let him pass in previous occassions when Fernando has been in his mind held up by a teamate, as with Fisi in Canada at Renault a few years ago. IIRC Alonso was screaming at the team to tell Fisi to move over on more than one occasion. I seem to remember him shaking fists at the McLaren team at Indy when he perhaps felt Lewis was delaying him.....

[ggreen29]

Let me start by saying the ban on team orders is a stupid rule, but since it's on the books it should be enforced.

In the case in question it wasn't enforced because the results were allowed to stand. Ferrari engaged in a rules violation that changed the race results and the driver point distribution, and those changed results were left unaltered by the FIA.

The FIA has now set a precedent by allowing rule-violated results to stand.

What happens if at the last race some of the drivers are able to win the WDC only if they skip the mandatory tire change pit stop? Can the team write a check to the FIA for $100,000, tell the driver to skip the mandatory tire change pit stop, and then keep the results?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by ggreen29

What happens if at the last race some of the drivers are able to win the WDC only if they skip the mandatory tire change pit stop? Can the team write a check to the FIA for $100,000, tell the driver to skip the mandatory tire change pit stop, and then keep the results?

That's a good example ggreen29. Why is a fine given for fixing a race result when it's against the rules, but a time penalty/disqualification/any other punishment that would actually effect the race result would probably be applied for not taking the mandatory pit-stop?

[Marbot]

Force India were fined 5000 Euros for their tyre mix up. A small price to pay for staying half a minute up the road should the punishment be the same for all such tyre indisgressions.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by E.B

IMO they are all as a team guilty, from Alonso for suggesting that Felipe should be ordered to let him pass, to the team for the wording and general conveying of the message and of course Felipe for the unsubtle execution of the order.

What a game this motor racing is eh? As long as you can break the rules with subtlety, you're OK......

I'm not a believer in team orders at all (although I understand why others are). I think team mates should be allowed - even encouraged - to race each other until the mathematics make it impossible for one team-mate to win the championship. And why do I think this? Because I'm a spectator wanting to watch great racing, not a driver or team manager or sponsor..... and that makes me selfish about it.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by ggreen29

...
In the case in question it wasn't enforced because the results were allowed to stand. Ferrari engaged in a rules violation that changed the race results and the driver point distribution, and those changed results were left unaltered by the FIA.
...

They were penalized, infact they were penalized to the maximum allowed by the rulebook. One could argue that if the stewarts werent so "greedy" and instead imposed a stop and go penalty to be served after the race instead of going for the maximum penalty then there would have been way less talk about this, and F1s image and reputation would have stayed cleaner.

[ggreen29]

They were hardly penalized the maximum amount since they were allowed to keep the ill-gotten points. The fines could have been financial and points; instead they were just financial.

The drivers could have been given a stop and go during the race, or had 20 or 30 seconds added to their time after the race.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by ggreen29

They were hardly penalized the maximum amount since they were allowed to keep the ill-gotten points. The fines could have been financial and points; instead they were just financial.
...

I believe the $100k fine was the biggest penalty the stewart panel were allowed to issue according to the rule book.

[ggreen29]

At the risk of beating a dead horse:

Option 1: fining Ferrari $100,000;

Option 2: fining Ferrari $100,000 and giving Ferrari drivers each a 30 sec penalty.

Option 2 would result in Alonso -13 pts, Massa -8, Vettel +10, Hammy +6, Button +5; Ferrari -21 pts, Red Bull +10, McL +11

Option 1 is what the FIA did.

Option 2 is more than what the FIA did.

Therefore what the FIA did is not the maximum.

[Wims]

I'm not talking about the extraordinary FIA meeting, I'm talking about the stewarts at the track. The FIA basically could not penalize Ferrari further, because they couldnt really prove that the code message ment move over. There have also been many other situations where team orders have been issued and drivers have not been penalized for, for example that year that Hamilton won it in the final corner of the season vs Massa. If they would have added a time penalty in addition to the 100k then I'm sure that Ferrari would have cried about what happened in 2008

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Wims

They were penalized, infact they were penalized to the maximum allowed by the rulebook. One could argue that if the stewarts werent so "greedy" and instead imposed a stop and go penalty to be served after the race instead of going for the maximum penalty then there would have been way less talk about this, and F1s image and reputation would have stayed cleaner.

They were penalised to the maximum financial penalty the stewards could come up with but allowed to keep the result they had engineered through their rule infraction.

Thats OK if you believe that everything has a financial value, that money is all that matters, that their are no ethical considerations, and that the imposition of a fine is acceptable even if the ethics of the situation would dictate that a proper penalty would be to take away the advantage gained.

If a drunk driver caused an incident that killed another road user and the judge imposed a fine, does that mean that its OK the kill other road users as long as you pay the fine?

The FIA has a responsibility to enforce its rules in a manner that does not allow a competitor to cheat and gain an advantage through violation of its rules. If a car is overwidth even a fraction of an inch it is zealously disqualified.
Yet here was a deiberate and calculated violation of a competition rule it failed to deal with in the same or a similar way by not penalising the driver or the team for the advantage gained on the road.

In doing that the FIA brought its own ability to enforce its rules in a consistent, reasonable, fair, and just manner into question.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

...
In doing that the FIA brought its own ability to enforce its rules in a consistent, reasonable, fair, and just manner into question.

The problem was that the FIA had ignored this rule 100s of times since it was created. Not giving a sporting penalty was indeed the consistent way of dealing with it.

[Born Racer]

I don't recall the rule being broken so obviously since it was made.

[Wims]

How about here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epI6u6uA8hM. IIRC the team told Kovalainen that "Hamilton is faster than you". Not an exact quote. It has also happened many, many other times. I seem to remember that McLaren once told Kovalainen to just move over straight as well, without coding the message.

[Born Racer]

A good example I suppose, although not such an obvious breach of the regulations, as he didn't brake so dramatically and let him past whilst his race engineer apologised.

It perhaps also helped that Kovalainen was nowhere that race and Hamilton miles quicker.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I don't recall the rule being broken so obviously since it was made.

So cheating is OK as long it is done discretely and they don't tell us about it?

They all bend the rules. Not a single team is whiter than white if you are looking for the "fairest" champion. For example don't mention flexi-wings near the Red Bull garage.

What Ferrari did was bend the rules. They gave team orders but by using choice words. The only mistake they did was orchestrate it so badly. Everyone new what happened. Atleast in a way it didn't take anything from Massa's drive.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

So cheating is OK as long it is done discretely and they don't tell us about it?

No and many of my posts recently on this subject have said as much, i.e. doing it discretely is just as bad. I was merely pointing out that as they'd incriminated themselves so badly, it was easy to punish them because it was beyond reasonable doubt that they had broken the rule.

Actually, I would have at least had a smidgin more respect for Ferrari had they admitted to breaking the rule after the race. Colajanni was an utter embarrassment to himself after the race, as were most of the team claiming there were "no team orders".

Originally Posted by ralf fan

They all bend the rules.

Agreed. But most teams exploit badly-worded regulations or look for loopholes.

Originally Posted by ralf fan

What Ferrari did was bend the rules. They gave team orders but by using choice words. The only mistake they did was orchestrate it so badly. Everyone new what happened.

A team order is still issued even if they don't say "this is a team order". This does demonstrate another badly-written rule though. Nonetheless, when the team is found guilty of it (as they blatantly were), and as the F.I.A. found, they should be punished better (in my opinion).

Originally Posted by ralf fan

At least in a way it didn't take anything from Massa's drive.

Only a potential win and 7 points.

And if we use the word 'drive' to mean motivation, it has appeared to have taken away some of that, or some confidence or something.