What has happened to the Ford teams??

[stmorri]

Originally Posted by cavvy

& I suggest it is a failure by the Ford teams. DJR in front of both 888 & SBR - these teams need to lift their games.

Why are you in denial ?

You are too quick to attack the normal first class result achieved by Walkinshaw, and too ready to accept second best as the norm.

Race fans are lucky you are not engineering SBR or 888 - I am sure they are looking to improving their own game.

cavvy, it's more likely that with the revised aero for the Fords their suspension settings are now all different and they are now playing catch up to HSV/HRT......if some action is not taken soon it may be a lost season as far as having the 2 makes fighting for the championship is concerned.

[goosel]

Originally Posted by barney551

Ummmm ... I think you are missing the point here ... its not ford complaining about the holden and parityas much as its more about the fact that the 4 Walkinshoddy vehicles are so far in front of the REST of the field

No, it isn't that they are so far in front, it's why have the other teams gone backwards?!

HRT/HSV are NOT doing any better times than previous years...

[barney551]

Originally Posted by goosel

No, it isn't that they are so far in front, it's why have the other teams gone backwards?!

HRT/HSV are NOT doing any better times than previous years...

whether they are slower or faster isnt the point either .... due to the many changes in aero, brakes etc everyone else seems to be struggling.


To me it seems a little strange that 1 group has come to grips with all this issues faster than ALL the others ... ford or holden.

OR

Have they had a lot longer to sort out the problems than we are led to believe.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by goosel

No, it isn't that they are so far in front, it's why have the other teams gone backwards?!

HRT/HSV are NOT doing any better times than previous years...

This is the crux of the argument... the WP cars are staying the same... everyone else has fallen off... why is this so? Glasses of milk with eggs in them ??

[Raceonly]

Originally Posted by cavvy

No doubt the Arrows F1 was a disaster & is used by Walkinshaw critics to dismiss 30 years success in engineering race winning cars.

As for F1 raceonly, who engineered Beneton in the early 90s, including the 1994 title - surprise, surprise: Tom Walkinshaw.

Were you unaware or just very selective in your choice of facts.

Remember Jaguar - in Gr C sporties, 87/88 TWR won 8 out of 10 against the might of Porsche, or the ETCC in the XJ12 or Bathurst with Gossy, or Le Mans in 91.

Yes, Tom has indeed been very successful- only a fool could say otherwise. But it is incorrect to say that he has been successful in every form of motorsport, when he failed so conspicously at the elite level (F1). I was merely pointing that out the assertion was false. No need to be so defensive for him.

[Phase3]

Originally Posted by WALLY011

Didn't take long for the ford camp to winge about the holden been better did it ,wsn't alot of complaining when the fords were out front ,and all of this after 2 rounds geez what next slow them down what for .

You've missed the point wally, Take the walkingshaw cars out, and the series is running as it was designed to, this isn't a "ford winge" as the mindless hrt supporters seam to believe, It's a concern that walkingshaw is destroying our sport by making his own rules.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Phase3

You've missed the point wally, Take the walkingshaw cars out, and the series is running as it was designed to, this isn't a "ford winge" as the mindless hrt supporters seam to believe, It's a concern that walkingshaw is destroying our sport by making his own rules.

I'm not a HRT or HSVDT supporter, but i can clearly see ford fans winging on this forum and many others.
Thats just motorsport for you.

[Phase3]

Each to their own......

[Rombles1]

Originally Posted by Phase3

You've missed the point wally, Take the walkingshaw cars out, and the series is running as it was designed to, this isn't a "ford winge" as the mindless hrt supporters seam to believe, It's a concern that walkingshaw is destroying our sport by making his own rules.

If you take the Walkinshaw cars out, you have Ford 1-7 in the championship. Somehow this whitewash would be more acceptable than the one we have at the moment? (I won't try to pretend it isn't a whitewash!) "Series... running as it was designed to" - yep, sounds like a "ford whinge".

As far as "destroying our sport by making his own rules", can somone actually show me what rules Tom has made up here? What rules has he broken? OK, Tom runs 4 cars, and they are fast. Is that against the rules? Does he have something illegal on the cars to make them fast? If the advantage comes from having 4 cars to get data from instead of 2, then is there a rule in place preventing 888 and either SBR or DJR from joining forces, and having one organisation run all 4 (or even 6) of their cars, therefore giving them this same percieved "advantage"? Team ownership, and structure of the organisations that may own a team do not make cars faster. Team management may, but AFAIK there isn't anything in a TLA saying that you can't contract out the management of your team to someone else who may be able to get it to run faster.

[barney551]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

I'm not a HRT or HSVDT supporter, but i can clearly see ford fans winging on this forum and many others.
Thats just motorsport for you.

Ummmmm which team do I support STEALTHY!!!!

We all arent Ford supporters because we dont like what is happening in the sport.

[STEALTHY]

Refer to Rombles1's post to what i'm getting at.


If someone has comes up with something making their cars faster, they should be banned. Thats what i'm sick of.

What about the driver swap incident. It wasn't against the rules, yet people were still wingeing. Don't get me started on the championship issue with lowndes, how he parked his car on the racing line ruining his chances of getting the title. Same ****, different ford fan having a cry

[Phase3]

One eyed holden madness, I love it! have a look at the point spread rombles1 and you'll understand what I'm talking about, or probably not.......


I don't mind who wins at all, as long as it's a level playing field. To some out there winning by any means possible is all that counts so they can beat there chest about it. Well, I guess you guys are right, tom walkingshaw's doing a super job for holden, I don't know what all this ongoing TEGA investigation is about though

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

Cavvy 1994 is also the year that Benneton were caught cheating with traction control !!! Dodgy fuel rig, ignoring Black Flags. - surprise, surprise - Tom Walkinshaw !!!!!

Ha Ha Ha maybe you should have been selective in your facts !!!!

Touche Trev !

Tom Walkinshaw is always at the cutting edge - in 94 the only issue you can genuinely place on his plate related to illegal wear on the skidblock - with strong individuals like Briatore & Schumacher, Benetton was well placed.

My problem with the current critics is the genuine failure to ask why 888 & FPR dont have their acts together, preferring to whinge about Walkinshaw.

Be honest, if you accumulated ALL the credits in engineering race cars for ALL of the Ford teams, the total of achievements would not equal those of Tom Walkinshaw.

Unlike the Walkinshaw critics (aka Ford apologists), I see 888 as running at the front once the circus returns to the East Coast i.e after NZ. They just need more time to sort the car out (an engineering problem) and Lowndes & Whincup will shoot past DJR (in their customer cars?).

[bazil]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Touche Trev !

Tom Walkinshaw is always at the cutting edge - in 94 the only issue you can genuinely place on his plate related to illegal wear on the skidblock - with strong individuals like Briatore & Schumacher, Benetton was well placed.

My problem with the current critics is the genuine failure to ask why 888 & FPR dont have their acts together, preferring to whinge about Walkinshaw.

Be honest, if you accumulated ALL the credits in engineering race cars for ALL of the Ford teams, the total of achievements would not equal those of Tom Walkinshaw.

Unlike the Walkinshaw critics (aka Ford apologists), I see 888 as running at the front once the circus returns to the East Coast i.e after NZ. They just need more time to sort the car out (an engineering problem) and Lowndes & Whincup will shoot past DJR (in their customer cars?).

All the ownership shaninigans aside the simple fact is Walkinshaw delivers results and knows what people and resources are needed.

There is no doubt the bar was raised and HRT/HSV lifted on his return, my fave story of Tom is the Jag Silk Cut efforts. Jag asked Tom if he could win Le Mann for them, he said yes and they said how much??

Legend has it Tom said "sign a cheque and I will fill it in when we have won..."

I wonder if Tom has a brother...

[Trev Campbell]

Ha Ha, Cavvy just pulling your chain !!!!!! I just found it funny that you used 1994 to demonstrate Tom's qualities, probably one of the most controvertial years in F1 with Benetton right in the centre due to various reasons.

But you are right he has won in almost every type of racing he has tried his hand at. My Favorites were the Group C Jag's fantastic cars. But the thing with winners is they often play in the grey areas of illegality and legallity to gain that extra pace or advantage.

Case in point Ferrari with movable wings and floors etc.

[TheMan]

I have to laugh! The suggestion that the HRT/HSV engine is 30-50 HP up on the rest is hilarious. Regardless of what is being claimed it simply is not as much as you all might think. The Aurora engine has a major Torque advantage, meaning this baby gets up and goes quicker than the Ford. It reaches peak RPM quicker and therefore appears to have 30 more horses but it doesnt. This category is about Torque. These motors have a major hole in and around 3500 to 5000 RPM. The teams that do well are the ones who have limited this hole the most. Making more of a stright line in the dino graph. Less dip in the graph = better performance out of corners reaching peak revs quicker. HRT/HSV have done this better than anyone. It was SBR for years and now it has changed.

As for DJR being better than T8, DJR have always maintained they had a superior motor than SBR just not the Chassis. Now they have the Chassis and they are proving they have the motor. Watch out for these cars at Bathurst.

[Raceonly]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Touche Trev !

Tom Walkinshaw is always at the cutting edge - in 94 the only issue you can genuinely place on his plate related to illegal wear on the skidblock - with strong individuals like Briatore & Schumacher, Benetton was well placed.

My problem with the current critics is the genuine failure to ask why 888 & FPR dont have their acts together, preferring to whinge about Walkinshaw.

Be honest, if you accumulated ALL the credits in engineering race cars for ALL of the Ford teams, the total of achievements would not equal those of Tom Walkinshaw.

Unlike the Walkinshaw critics (aka Ford apologists), I see 888 as running at the front once the circus returns to the East Coast i.e after NZ. They just need more time to sort the car out (an engineering problem) and Lowndes & Whincup will shoot past DJR (in their customer cars?).

Well, if you limit it to just the Ford part of the deal, you are right. But Tripple 8 have done well in European touring cars, and Prodrive has doen well in the past in WRC with Subaru- they have won a few world championships. So it might be best to compare apple with apples- if it really proves anything.

As was said earlier, if the BA and VZ are considered equally quick, and the VE is the same speed as the VZ, and they slowed the BF down, it would make sense then wouldn't it that the VE is now wuicker than the BF? I don't really know about that, but I do know this is the price you pay for having a silhouette formula. Funny thying is, back when the WTCC came to Bathurst in the 80's, everyone then yelled long and hard against the concept of a silhouette formula. Pity that they stopped.

[Raceonly]

Originally Posted by TheMan

I have to laugh! The suggestion that the HRT/HSV engine is 30-50 HP up on the rest is hilarious. Regardless of what is being claimed it simply is not as much as you all might think. The Aurora engine has a major Torque advantage, meaning this baby gets up and goes quicker than the Ford. It reaches peak RPM quicker and therefore appears to have 30 more horses but it doesnt. This category is about Torque. These motors have a major hole in and around 3500 to 5000 RPM. The teams that do well are the ones who have limited this hole the most. Making more of a stright line in the dino graph. Less dip in the graph = better performance out of corners reaching peak revs quicker. HRT/HSV have done this better than anyone. It was SBR for years and now it has changed.

As for DJR being better than T8, DJR have always maintained they had a superior motor than SBR just not the Chassis. Now they have the Chassis and they are proving they have the motor. Watch out for these cars at Bathurst.

Maybe they should use engines based on production engines.

[82xeesp]

"The Aurora engine has a major Torque advantage, meaning this baby gets up and goes quicker than the Ford." Fair piont but as my original post asks why is this so seeing that the aurora engine is the ford svo engine?
"It reaches peak RPM quicker" Isn't this the definition of horsepower, the ability to gain engine speed? "This category is about Torque" But torque won't help you gain engine speed at 6500+rpm will it?
Anyway off topic again, does anyone know the reason behind the lack of performance from the ford boys? Can't figure out the new D3 head, camshaft, mapping, exhuast etc.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by 82xeesp

Isn't this the definition of horsepower, the ability to gain engine speed? "This category is about Torque" But torque won't help you gain engine speed at 6500+rpm will it?

Power wins at the pub
Torque wins at the Track!

[Armco Bender]

As long as Ford win Bathurst who gives a big rats bum about the rest of the season,Its only practise for Bathurst.

[leaso]

Some were someone asked why is HRT/HSV so far in front of the rest in both Fords and Holderns.

Basicly they are professionals to the very end. If you went over these cars you would find low fricton bearings, single lip seals all the little things that take power away from a car. Rule of friction is the more you have the more heat generated(which causes failures) and the less Power is transmitted. More Fricton = less power.

With that said the 888 car is notably slower than the SBR cars in hp and the DJR cars quicker again. Dj has always had fast motors but struggled with setup, now they have good setup the results are showing, Remember 888 is doing the DJR cars and SBR do there own setups but why is that the 888 car cant match the SBR car in straight line grunt???????? Come on 888 ditch SBR and use DJR motors give Lowndes and Wincup half a chance.


My hat goes off to HRT?HSV for having their sh*t sorted and they should be rewarded with good results. this from a holdern factory team hater

[dsg]

And they have twice as much data than everyone else.

[Raceonly]

Originally Posted by leaso

Some were someone asked why is HRT/HSV so far in front of the rest in both Fords and Holderns.

Basicly they are professionals to the very end. If you went over these cars you would find low fricton bearings, single lip seals all the little things that take power away from a car. Rule of friction is the more you have the more heat generated(which causes failures) and the less Power is transmitted. More Fricton = less power.

If HRT know this, and even more importantly if you know this, then there is half a chance the other teams might know this as well- even if they are a bunch of foolish amateurs with little idea of how to build a race car. Despite having inadequate power and all the other drawbacks associated with their lack of professionalism, they did win Bathurst and most likely would have won the championship if for not having been taken out by the guy who did win the championship.

[TheMan]

Originally Posted by 82xeesp

"The Aurora engine has a major Torque advantage, meaning this baby gets up and goes quicker than the Ford." Fair piont but as my original post asks why is this so seeing that the aurora engine is the ford svo engine?
"It reaches peak RPM quicker" Isn't this the definition of horsepower, the ability to gain engine speed? "This category is about Torque" But torque won't help you gain engine speed at 6500+rpm wii it?

You are right to a point, but I never suggested they did not have horsepower, just not the 30-50 more horses than is being claimed. Simply the engine gets out of corners better than the rest, and there horsepower is at least equal if not slightly better than the rest. With the torque off the corner, then they reach the 6500rpm mark quicker and therefore are able to use all there engine to the optimum.

My quote that the Aurora has a major torque advantage is incorrect, but it does have a torque advantage.