Bernie - F1 will need to move out of Europe.

[Jay]

That's quite a generalization Wethat... but I assure you, there's a TV or two in Africa... this really is more about asia though.

Pitstop, if I was in Europe and had the much money to throw away, I'd probably go to 2-3 GP a year as well... but I'm in Canada so I go to the Canadian GP, and several other (much more enjoyable) non-F1 motorsports. The lack of access F1 gives, means the only thing 'in your face' at an F1 race is a fence blocking your way or the back of someone else's head. I prefer every other series where everyone can meet the drivers and touch the cars.

That aside, I ask you, why would the people that run F1 race in Europe for 200,000 paying customers over 200,000 paying customers in Asia? Especially if the teams are allowed to advertise whatever they like on the cars in asia, and have several (or most for some teams) sponsors are from Asia?

Again though, I don't see this as something that's specific to F1, but more the world economy as a whole... and F1 is a sport that likes to follow the money.

Personally, I'd like to see F1 cut its costs so that it would not be so dependant on taking money from every "evil" source, but I think that's my dream world and I can't see it happening.

[ASCII Man]

Quit hogging that dreamworld, damnit!
I want some too.

[Pitstop]

Quote by Jay:

That aside, I ask you, why would the people that run F1 race in Europe for 200,000 paying customers over 200,000 paying customers in Asia? Especially if the teams are allowed to advertise whatever they like on the cars in asia, and have several (or most for some teams) sponsors are from Asia? Unquote

I really don't know Jay - that is not what I said.

[GP Racer]

Personally, I don't think you could get 200,000 paying fans for races in Asia.

Malaysia doesn't draw half that many, and just because China and India have literally billions of people, its no guarantee of a big draw. Theres no history or love of the automobile, let alone racing and race cars. The majority don't drive, and don't own cars, let alone have a BMW or Ferrari! Why would Ferrari even want to show there wares there? Its a waste of money for them. Eddie Jordan is chasing a fools dream in Asia, looking for sponsors and drivers, when America is sitting here waiting to have its F1 market tapped and really get involved in it.

You can talk all you want about the TV audience being huge wherever they race, but it just looks terrible on TV to see empty stands. You can't grow your series like that, because people want to tune into whats hot, and empty stands won't project a feeling to people that there watching something thats hot or good.

Keep the majority of racing in Europe, come to North and South America, and Japan. Thats where its at today for F1, and will be in the future.

[GT-Vixen]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Just a small point. How old will BE be in 10 years and will he still be at the reins of F1? I doubt it somehow.

He has a mini BE lined up and is training him up as we type!

I have some questions too. Who here has started smoking because of ciggy advertising in F1? Who here is a smoker and has changed their brand of ciggy because your F1 team advertises a different brand?

If ciggy companies researched these main things and find most people answer no, the fact Asia and America are growing markets wouldn't matter in the least.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Jay
Pitstop, if I was in Europe and had the much money to throw away, I'd probably go to 2-3 GP a year as well... but I'm in Canada so I go to the Canadian GP, and several other (much more enjoyable) non-F1 motorsports. The lack of access F1 gives, means the only thing 'in your face' at an F1 race is a fence blocking your way or the back of someone else's head. I prefer every other series where everyone can meet the drivers and touch the cars.

Again though, I don't see this as something that's specific to F1, but more the world economy as a whole... and F1 is a sport that likes to follow the money.

You have hit the nail squarely on the head Jay...I do the same in Australia and the only time I was able to get in to F1 pits was when my father was doing PR for Ford.

F1 will never be accessible unless you are the CEO of Compaq or something and we're probably content to watch them on TV. But true motorsports fans need more and other categories should BEWARE of going down the F1 route.

Why don't people (read motorsports organisers) use the "good ol boys" of NASCAR as an example? They make fans their No. 1 priority and are accessible for long periods to talk and sign autographs etc. They have second-to-none TV coverage, provide great entertainment (although I would like to see them go round a few more right handers) and, surprise, surprise ... they are one of (if not the) most popular sports in the USA and get full houses to EVERY meet. And they have sponsors literally lining up to be in it. And the result is that they dont NEED to go outside the USA.

Already the premier series in Australia, the V8 Supercars is starting to smell a bit Ecclestone-ised with a race in China this year...

[dretceterini]

"when America is sitting here waiting to have its F1 market tapped and really get involved in it."

Sorry, but there is not much of a F1 or sportscar market in the US. For the average American, these are European sports.

[Jay]

Pitstop, I know that's not what you said, but it is a relevant question I was asking you...

GP Racer, you make a good argument, though I'd bet the vast majority of F1 fans don't own BMWs or Ferraris and millions (including myself) don't own a car at all...especially if they live in asia. I would say F1 teams ignore the American economy for the most part, because there is almost zero interest there and few American companies are willing to put money into F1 - unless it is aimed at a market outside of North America. Jordan isn't the only one chasing Asian sponsorship, but BAR, Toyota, Sauber, Minardi and I imagine many others that haven't found it yet are exploring the growing asian economy. It's still in a startup phase, but give it 5-10 years and I think you could possibly see the majority of sponsors in F1 from Asia! In some cases, they might be North American/European companies that have relocated most of their business to asia or asia is now their target market. I know this is where high-tech is going, and I have to imagine they're not alone.

So to answer GP Racer's question, Ferrari would want to show their wares in Asia if that's where the new millionaires are springing up, and that's where the economic growth and potential sales are. Give it 5-10 years, and see where the world stands...

[GP Racer]

Its definetly, a scary new world that Europe and N America are embarking on. It will be interesting to see if this whole Asian investment theory works.

I, personally, don't think it will. Many parts of Asia, China and India for the most part, still live in abject poverty with a poor standard of living. Only a certain few will have the means or even care about going to an F1 race, let alone ever having the means to own a Ferrari or Bimmer. TV's are few and far between, and I'm not even sure they would cover the race.

As for America not being a good market for F1, I say your wrong. There seems that there has never been a real push in this country to market F1. Its as good a show as NASCAR, it has interesting teams, the driver soap-opera is as good as any, sexy, fast cars, good looking cars, all with a dependable, easy to follow schedule, and they race in some great locations. Its everything an American can want, we just need a driver or two!

In America, you can market anything if its good(and even not so good!). There just hasn't been an effort made. I'm not so sure the same can be said of Asia...

[Jay]

Good point about marketing in the US - but is there the will to make it happen? The US economy is highly saturated, while the Asian economies are fledging and open for business - with billions of people, millions of which have money, everyone wants a piece of the pie. Cheap labour and very favourable business laws help big-time too.

There may be abject poverty in much of Asia, but from the point of view of a company, it doesn't matter if 2 billion people are living in poverty if there are a mere 300 million wealthy people to market the product to. The Chinese economy, as an example, is growing at a rate far greater than anything in Europe and North America. The new jobs are skilled ones as well, with well payed workers (albeit a lot less than they would make in North America or Europe). This also breeds a start-up atmosphere, and encourages people to start their own businesses and contribute the boom. I fear that in locating more and more of their operations in asia, some North American and European companies may be contributing to their eventual demise...or at least the economies of their

[DaveOrama]

Half the reason for the manufacturers wanted to form the GPWC series that if they controlled TV money they would not be as reliant on the tobacco money.

Then they could control where they raced - where their cars sell.

[GP Racer]

You said it all jay, when you mentioned the cheap labor and favorable business laws in Asia.

While the western world sues itself into oblivion and regulates anything thats not nailed down, Asia is ready to kick our collective butts with no laws to hinder it and no lawyers to sue for anything.

But lets not forget one important thing, China is communist, and nothing of greatness ever came out of that system. I think F1 and Bernie will find it rather difficult in making deals there. They don't really understand the free market, marketing products, and the whole principle of making money. Its not a free society, and they may have trouble grasping the whole F1 concept altogether.

Personally, I hope this whole venture falls flat on its face. Asia hasn't done anything for the sport of F1, so they shouldn't just be handed a GP. There are far more deserving places to hold races.

Another one in America would be OK, and I'd certainly appreciate it!

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

Originally posted by GP Racer
If Bernie thinks he can blow off Europe, and head to such "hot" spots as Bahrain, India, and China, and be successful, it will lead to F1's demise.

Its an American based series, that neglected the American fan, went international, and now has no American drivers left. No American drivers=No American fans. For F1, no European drivers=no European fans. Now CART is out of business, and nobody in this country cares. The same could happen to F1.

Leave Europe, Bernie? At your own peril...

Not quite true. You cannot equate European self obsession to that of the US when it comes to watching sport. Europeans always loved watching Piquet, Senna etc.

What you say about CART is true to a point but the harsh fact remains US drivers were squeezed out over a ten year period by European and South American drivers who were simply too good for the US guys to live with. Ironically they all drove British cars anyway, so what was so all American about it in the first place?

Re F1, Bernie is simply interested in taking races to places that offer him a fortune for the privelege. Don't forget that is his biggest motivation. Any other excuse he offers for removing a race from the calendar is BS.

[Liz]

When I was at University in 1970 we had a dorm that was for the Arab students -- the first thing they did when they arrived in the USA was buy Trans Ams and their parking lot was crammed with beautiful fast cars at the time when Earth Day had just begun the campaign to get Americans to quit driving at all. (We all drove to school on the first Earth Day. It was that kind of school.) That was 34 years ago and I can bet that things have not changed a lot. In fact, my old school is now mainly Arab and Japanese students and they are certainly not living in abject poverty.

Anyone who has been watching "Lou Dobbs Moneyline" and his perpetual ranting about "American Jobs" going to India will know that it's the high tech, high skilled work going to the young people in India, where for a long time families have sacrificed to be sure their sons dont' have to work in blue collar labour The first thing a young man wants when he gets money is a fast car. What better market for fast cars than a fast growing high tech environment like India?

America is never going to be a big market for F1 because it's literally inaccessible to most people (Indianapolis is an expensive journey both time and money wise for the majority of American) and because for the same money you can go to Spa. I've always felt that Bernie has no idea what a large country the USA really is and how long it would take to drive from Oregon to Indianapolis, for example. He's used to countries you can bicycle across in the time it takes to get from Oregon to North Dakota.

[downforce]

"Anyone who has been watching "Lou Dobbs Moneyline" and his perpetual ranting about "American Jobs" going to India will know that it's the high tech, high skilled work going to the young people in India, where for a long time families have sacrificed to be sure their sons dont' have to work in blue collar labour The first thing a young man wants when he gets money is a fast car. What better market for fast cars than a fast growing high tech environment like India?"


Hi Liz, its been a while...thanks for making the point!

[BootsOntheSide]

Liz, while I understand possible cause for you having a biased view of Arabs, I can assure you that the majority of people in the Middle East and Asia live in poverty. The ones studying in America or Europe will either be from rich families or the beneficiaries of scholarships.

Also, jobs have been exported to India for pruely financial reasons. Companies don't expect better staff, they expect better staff for the money, which is the reason Hispanic immigrants in the southern states have been so successful (and Britain's Jamaican/Indian Subcontinent/Arab communities to an extent). The kids getting paid the equivalent of £2.50 an hour won't be able to afford flash cars, let alone £120 F1 tickets.

[Jay]

Again though, it doesn't matter if a billion people are living in poverty if you have 300 million that do have money to spend... and that is growing faster than anywhere in the Americas or Europe. Regardless of how many people are living in the slums, the number of people who have money to spend is growing - and everyone wants in on the action.

BootsOntheSide, that may have been true a number of years back - but it is certainly not now. As Liz said, there's a large and rapidly growing number of skilled workers in Asian and the Middle East that are being paid their worth - yes it's less than their North American counterpart, but we're talking $80,000/year instead of $200,000 with fewer benefits. In addition, it's also created a startup atmosphere in which more and more people are going into business and building the economy - more skilled jobs, etc. Also, these companies are not hiring kids, but highly skilled workers with University degrees. And I know the high-tech companies are not moving resources to asia simply for cheap labour - they want to break into the market and sell their products there! (this is new) They see that the Asian economy is growing at a pace far greater than North America or Europe and want to sell their products their to the new generation, which will have money to spend. This often requires setting up shop there - and I'm not talking about a sweat shop.

As an example of how asia is already ahead of North America and Europe, most of the latest electronics (from European and North American companies no less!) come out in Asia before they get to North America - these are cellphones, TVs, sterios and other gizmos that can cost a lot more than F1 tickets or merchandise. Yet, South Korea is the most wired nation on earth and about 2-5 years ahead of the rest of the world as far as consumer electronics go. I'm sure F1 would love a piece of that pie... and several others...

[Wethat]

People who say N America is a market for F1 don't know what they are talking about. Most race fans over there don't understand a thing like F1 and the popularity of nascar is a great example of that.

[I Ate Yoko Ono]

I agree with everything Jay has said (in his last two posts, not literally everything, ever!)

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by I Ate Yoko Ono
Not quite true. You cannot equate European self obsession to that of the US when it comes to watching sport. Europeans always loved watching Piquet, Senna etc.

What you say about CART is true to a point but the harsh fact remains US drivers were squeezed out over a ten year period by European and South American drivers who were simply too good for the US guys to live with. Ironically they all drove British cars anyway, so what was so all American about it in the first place?

Re F1, Bernie is simply interested in taking races to places that offer him a fortune for the privelege. Don't forget that is his biggest motivation. Any other excuse he offers for removing a race from the calendar is BS.

How long would the English fans of F1 stay interested, if there was no English drivers, or European for that matter?
Not long I would imagine.

Liz, America is a big country, but its really not all that expensive to get around. I go to the USGP for 3 days, and it costs me about $600 for hotel, airfare, rental car, and race tickets. Thats pretty reasonable for 3 days of racing, certainly far less than Spa.

Wethat, I'm about fed-up with people that tell me America isn't smart enough to get F1. Has F1 ever really tried to make it here? Has it ever marketed itself here? No, they havn't, because for whatever the reason, it seems they really don't want us in. How do you explain that the USGP draws the biggest crowd of the year? This is a big country that can easily handle another GP that will easily draw another 2-3 hundred thousand, and thats with no marketing, or any effort on F1's part. Imagine what could be done if F1 tried alittle! Contrary to what you might think, we're actually pretty smart here wethat, and I think we could actually grasp all the complexities of F1...

[Wethat]

That is verry "interresting" GP Racer that when I say I think that F1 isn't going to be big in America you somehow automatically assume I think American's are too stupid..Is that because I mentioned that nascar is popular over there? Then you begin that whole defensive "us vs them" battle which is totally off topic and not necessary..sjees.

[Super Tourer]

Keep it friendly guys!

Some points.

Certainly the US can take one or two more races, it's the world's biggest economy, so F1 wants to be big there.

Part of Bernie's rationale may be that F1 needs an American driver to succeed in F1, who know's if this would make a major impact - but Red Bull and Bernie share the same aspirations for (I would say) the same reasons.

Another point, every team on the grid has courted the likes of Coca-Cola and McDonalds to become f1 partners/sponsors - to no effect, maybe another race or two no the calendar in the USA would sway them?

[Liz]

Fast food and pop are not the kinds of sponsors that Formula One would be likely to support; you're not going to meet TGF down the convenience store or in the drive thru line.

Believe it or not, $600 is a lot of money for 3 days, to the majority of Americans. And I could in fact go to Spa for that much money. ($600 US, not $600 Canadian). And most of the people I know who go to the USGP go there by car. A number of others would go if they could drive there but they can't.

Jay's right about the changing Asian economies. Those of us who lived in the 1950s can remember when "Made in Japan" meant "cheap junk" -- now they make nearly all the electronics we use and a lot of the cars we drive. In five years you'll find the same thing about electronics being made in Korea and Vietnam and other Asian countries. Countries that aren't whipsawed by Unions, you'll notice. And "living in poverty" is a very subjective judgment. The poorest state in the United States (Mississippi) has a higher per capita income than the richest province in Canada (Ontario).

Bernie may not know anything about racing, but he knows everything about making money. I'd trust his judgment on where the big cashola will be coming from although I wouldn't trust his thinking about what makes good racing.

I don't "dislike Arabs" as a blanket statement, BTW, only the ones whom I would dislike for their behaviour no matter what country they came from.

[GP Racer]

Wethat, your post about Americans not grasping F1 was pretty offensive to me, but I'll leave it at that, maybe I took it wrong.

American F1 fans do about as well as we can, considering the only thing we get on F1, is second hand TV coverage, that we see at all kinds of terrible hours of the day or night. We don't have any TV shows, or magazines or interviews, commercials, F1 talk shows or any of the stuff you guys across the pond are able to follow.

There's no doubt in my mind that F1 can be like NASCAR is here, or at least a close second, if there was some kind of effort made by Bernie. Give us, what you guys have over there on F1, and it could grow tremendously here. The odds are far better, with less risk, and a bigger payoff, if they tried doing F1 big over here, than going to places like Bahrain, or China. Thats a gamble that could very well turn sour, quickly.

Liz, you need to show me how to do Spa, for $600! I'll forego Indy if you can do that!

Thank for keeping me straight super tourer!

[KC]

The single biggest reason why F1 is not popular in America is that there is no reason for it get popular. Bernie and the FIA make all the money. Tony George does not even get to keep all of the gate at the race. He has to pay a piece of it to Bernie for the privilege of hosting a GP. To most mainstream American racing fans the attitiude of F1 is offensive.

They come into town and expect everyone and everything to kowtow to them. Traffic is suposed to stop, life supposed to be on hold, news media to fawn and cater to every single word and gesture, and everyone is expected to be lost in wonder and awe about the entire concept of Formula 1. This attitude is quickest way to **** off a huge sector of the racing fandom. A little humility goes a long way.

Take into consideration this, at the first USGP at Indy Chris Economaki was denied press credentials to the Grand Prix. Many of you may not know who he is, but he publishes the single most read racing publication in America, The Speed Sport News. He has covered every racing event at the Speeday for the last 50 years. Denying him access would be the same a denying access to Murray Walker or Nigel Roebuck or Peter Windsor. Economaki called Tony George to see about getting cleared and he went down to the press entrance to personally vouch for Economaki and was still stoned at the gate by Bernie's site security. Does anyone think there were not repercussions for this? When the track owner cannot get a respected reporter and guest through the gate at his own facility?

To his credit, Economaki still covered the race, reported the results, and printed a couple of interviews. However, he did write of his disappointment and frustration at F1 in his editorial. Thousands of racing fans read this paper each week and his words carry a lot of weight. Then Bernie and Max insult the fans by saying they are too simple and not sophisticated enough when some is ****ing down their back and telling them its raining.