Multi 21 Red Bull-Honda - Page 2

F1Guy · 19 Jun 2018, 07:14 (Ref:3831812)

Team A dumps engine X and goes with engine Y.

Team B dumps engine Y and goes with engine X.

Team B beats team A with the engine they dumped!!

Possible scenario for 2019??

VIVA GT · 19 Jun 2018, 07:14 (Ref:3831813)

It'll be interesting to see where DR decides to go with his drive now...

F1Guy · 19 Jun 2018, 07:25 (Ref:3831814)

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

It'll be interesting to see where DR decides to go with his drive now...

With Adrian Newey now rumoured to be heading to Renault for 2019....

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Ricciardo to drive for the factory Renault team in 2019!

Mekola · 19 Jun 2018, 07:48 (Ref:3831815)

Volkswagen will buy Honda??? eeeh

dsg · 19 Jun 2018, 08:18 (Ref:3831820)

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Ricciardo to drive for the factory Renault team in 2019!

I thought Webber was going to Renault.

steve nielsen · 19 Jun 2018, 08:28 (Ref:3831823)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That's a bold move, considering Scuderia Toro Rosso Honda are 7th in the WCC, with 19 points.

But Red Bull obviously studied the data on Toro Rosso's engine and know what they could have done with it

steve_r · 19 Jun 2018, 11:07 (Ref:3831856)

The brilliant combination of RBR's, shall we say, rather robust public admonishment of their current engine suppliers, mixed in with Honda's woeful performance and even more woeful reliability.

what could possibly go wrong?

Go Harder. · 19 Jun 2018, 11:35 (Ref:3831860)

Gotta feel for all the TAG engine guys who will be out of work now.

Or will another team pick up the supply?

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jun 2018, 12:50 (Ref:3831866)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsg

Toro Rosso with Renault engines finished 7th in the WCC last year.

Let's not forget McLaren's woes, as they struggled for three seasons with the Honda PU.

steve nielsen · 19 Jun 2018, 13:25 (Ref:3831878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Let's not forget McLaren's woes, as they struggled for three seasons with the Honda PU.

They blamed Honda for everything, but it's not like they are on par with Red Bull now is it?

Paradise City · 19 Jun 2018, 13:26 (Ref:3831879)

It's not a bad gamble.

Mateschitz gets a far cheaper bill, Renault works will ultimately want to surpass Red Bull so being a customer team for them is not a championship winning proposition and if Honda does come good, Mateschitz has struck a gold mine. Honda has (rightly) got alot of flak but they are a multinational company. They aren't jokers even if they like to play the clown for a time; they will want to win eventually. So it's not a bad gamble methinks.

S griffin · 19 Jun 2018, 13:26 (Ref:3831880)

Only real logical solution, let's see if the Honda engine is good enough next season. With more than enough running on the Toro Rosso, there's no reason why it shouldn't

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jun 2018, 13:31 (Ref:3831885)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

They blamed Honda for everything, but it's not like they are on par with Red Bull now is it?

Indeed they did and they are certainly not on a par with Red Bull. However, they are currently 5th in the WCC, with 40 points, compared to finishing 9th last year with 30 points.

steve nielsen · 19 Jun 2018, 13:40 (Ref:3831890)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Indeed they did.

they also insisted they had one of the best chassis

and also Alonso had only 1 retirement more after Canada than this season(3 last year, 2 this year)

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jun 2018, 14:38 (Ref:3831896)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

they also insisted they had one of the best chassis

and also Alonso had only 1 retirement more after Canada than this season(3 last year, 2 this year)

This season isn't even half way through, so it will be interesting to see how Alonso and McLaren fare, come the end of it.

Richard C · 19 Jun 2018, 14:43 (Ref:3831897)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Honda have somehow have created a completely free hype machine... everybody seems convinced that they improved massively in Canada when there actually was no indication of that whatsoever. In fact, Renault was the one with the big improvement, comfortably beating Force India.

Clearly Honda is totally in cahoots with Toro Rosso in an effort to pull the wool over Red Bull's eyes! Kudos to them for effortlessly fooling what was likely quite an extensive examination of all of the data by Red Bull.

Note... My post is sarcastic as I assume yours was as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Indeed they did and they are certainly not on a par with Red Bull. However, they are currently 5th in the WCC, with 40 points, compared to finishing 9th last year with 30 points.

Really any discussion about McLaren and Honda's past can only say that it was a mess. Issues on both sides. Honda weathered the abuse quite well while they had problems. So Honda is on the upswing now (anyone who believes otherwise has their head in the sand), but Red Bull is still a tough customer. So 2019 and beyond should be interesting. At a minimum, running two teams should give them twice the on-track data.

Overall... maybe if the 2017 Honda engine was mated to the 2019 Red Bull it will fit everyone's expectation of doom?

Richard

steve nielsen · 19 Jun 2018, 15:45 (Ref:3831910)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_r

The brilliant combination of RBR's, shall we say, rather robust public admonishment of their current engine suppliers, mixed in with Honda's woeful performance and even more woeful reliability.

what could possibly go wrong?

a driver yelling "GP2 engine" over the radio was much better?

karting · 19 Jun 2018, 17:28 (Ref:3831928)

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

a driver yelling "GP2 engine" over the radio was much better?

But it was said that Mclearn threw on as much wing as possible to make their chassis look amazing and the engine to be at fault. Loads of wing = gp2 engine

Akrapovic · 19 Jun 2018, 17:32 (Ref:3831929)

Quote:

Originally Posted by karting

But it was said that Mclearn threw on as much wing as possible to make their chassis look amazing and the engine to be at fault. Loads of wing = gp2 engine

The other way of looking at it is that if the engine has no power anyway, then you might as well exploit the advantages gained by adding the wing. Hardly a loss if you're already last.

People can sit and say that McLaren made too big a deal out of the engine, but bjohnsonsmith already pointed out - they already have 10 points more than they did last season, and are 4 places higher.

S griffin · 19 Jun 2018, 18:03 (Ref:3831932)

McLaren ain’t exactly winning races, but they are certainly further up there than they were last season

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jun 2018, 19:05 (Ref:3831950)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Clearly Honda is totally in cahoots with Toro Rosso in an effort to pull the wool over Red Bull's eyes! Kudos to them for effortlessly fooling what was likely quite an extensive examination of all of the data by Red Bull.

Note... My post is sarcastic as I assume yours was as well?

Really any discussion about McLaren and Honda's past can only say that it was a mess. Issues on both sides. Honda weathered the abuse quite well while they had problems. So Honda is on the upswing now (anyone who believes otherwise has their head in the sand), but Red Bull is still a tough customer. So 2019 and beyond should be interesting. At a minimum, running two teams should give them twice the on-track data.

Overall... maybe if the 2017 Honda engine was mated to the 2019 Red Bull it will fit everyone's expectation of doom?

Richard

I think it's a little premature to say Honda are on the upswing. The European part of the season proper, is about to get underway this weekeend and the GPs will be coming thick and fast before the F1 Circus has its summer break. The French, Austrian and British GPs are on consecutive weekends, with a two week gap followed by back-to-back GPs in Germany and Hungary, so if they are indeed on the upswing, this is when they need to prove they are.

Interestingly, after last year's Canadian GP, TR were 5th in the WCC with 29 points, this year McLaren are 5th with 40 points.

Richard C · 19 Jun 2018, 19:50 (Ref:3831958)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think it's a little premature to say Honda are on the upswing.

I am truly curious why you say that? Compared to last year they have made a huge stride forward with respect to reliability and performance (still not as good as the benchmark). And while people can be cynical and say "the drivers were paid to say glowing things", they were very happy with the upgraded power unit at Canada.

What evidence suggests they are NOT on the upswing? Note, my definition of "upswing" is that they are making measurable and substantial forward progress.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The European part of the season proper, is about to get underway this weekeend and the GPs will be coming thick and fast before the F1 Circus has its summer break. The French, Austrian and British GPs are on consecutive weekends, with a two week gap followed by back-to-back GPs in Germany and Hungary, so if they are indeed on the upswing, this is when they need to prove they are.

I take this to mean that after much of the season has been run that we can then look back and comment on how Honda has done. That is about looking in the past. I am talking about now. What delta has Honda produced since 2017 season end?

Given the limited number of power units allowed, teams can't really dribble out upgrades as we go. So I would expect maybe one more upgrade from Honda before the end of the season. And it is likely to not be as large as the recent one. I think what remains of the season is the question of the level of reliability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Interestingly, after last year's Canadian GP, TR were 5th in the WCC with 29 points, this year McLaren are 5th with 40 points.

I did a poor job in my earlier post, but my intent was to say that... frankly whatever is happening now or in the recent past with McLaren has zero relevance with respect to Honda today. And there are likely a number of vast differences between McLaren and TR in general (Alonso factor for one) and changes between one year to the next (such as totally new drivers at TR). So its a bit hard to compare them in some way that somehow pretends the only difference between the teams is the engine swap that happened over the winter. I would argue that given it's resources that McLaren remains a hot mess. They must be thankful that Williams is a total disaster to keep the questions off them.

Richard

EffectiveSprinkles · 19 Jun 2018, 23:14 (Ref:3831984)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

What evidence suggests they are NOT on the upswing? Note, my definition of "upswing" is that they are making measurable and substantial forward progress.

Pretty much every piece of data you can find?

The onus is on you to suggest evidence that they actually are 'on the upswing'. We've heard all this before.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 19 Jun 2018, 23:26 (Ref:3831985)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I am truly curious why you say that? Compared to last year they have made a huge stride forward with respect to reliability and performance (still not as good as the benchmark). And while people can be cynical and say "the drivers were paid to say glowing things", they were very happy with the upgraded power unit at Canada.

What evidence suggests they are NOT on the upswing? Note, my definition of "upswing" is that they are making measurable and substantial forward progress.

I take this to mean that after much of the season has been run that we can then look back and comment on how Honda has done. That is about looking in the past. I am talking about now. What delta has Honda produced since 2017 season end?

Given the limited number of power units allowed, teams can't really dribble out upgrades as we go. So I would expect maybe one more upgrade from Honda before the end of the season. And it is likely to not be as large as the recent one. I think what remains of the season is the question of the level of reliability.

I did a poor job in my earlier post, but my intent was to say that... frankly whatever is happening now or in the recent past with McLaren has zero relevance with respect to Honda today. And there are likely a number of vast differences between McLaren and TR in general (Alonso factor for one) and changes between one year to the next (such as totally new drivers at TR). So its a bit hard to compare them in some way that somehow pretends the only difference between the teams is the engine swap that happened over the winter. I would argue that given it's resources that McLaren remains a hot mess. They must be thankful that Williams is a total disaster to keep the questions off them.

Richard

The onus is on STR/Honda to prove themselves, if they are indeed on the upswing.

broadrun96 · 19 Jun 2018, 23:46 (Ref:3831988)

Quote:

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Pretty much every piece of data you can find?

The onus is on you to suggest evidence that they actually are 'on the upswing'. We've heard all this before.

What are you reading? Every major F1 related publication, site, author has a similar stance regarding the upgraded Honda plant at Canada. It was an improvement and MILES beyond the pathetic "upgrade" that Renault rolled out.

And sorry but you've made the claim of all that data, it's YOUR job to demonstrate and back up why you disagree with most in the business, not the poster you don't agree with. And yes, it might get me points but being a tempermental child who doesn't like being told you're in fact wrong, which in most posts you factually are, doesn't mean you get to pretend we're here to provide you with cited references when you don't agree. You have not once provided facts, opinion or even a hint of information to back up your claims, so why exactly is it another job to provide you with info? It's called being informed and reading for yourself

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