BNT NZSuperTourer 2015

[NZSTfan]

Yes it was a pretty nice day at HD yesterday watching a handful of ST's fire up and turn some laps. Smeg where there, as was Hydraulink, JMR, iSport, and the Varneys, all looking battered and bruised from the enduros, but with the JMR Falcon basically all black, as we know they are chasing new sponsors, and hopefully have them signing on the dotted line too.

Velocity have done a much better report on the day than speedcafe (no surprises) and can be found on this link...

https://www.facebook.com/VelocityNews

Renee, if she can make it, will be a huge boost for the category. Not only is she a really nice and genuine person, but she is clearly a good peddler as well. Mark Heimgartner was telling me that she was quite proud of the fact that she administers greater brake pressure than Paul Morris! so she is good under brakes. Within 10 or so laps on decent tyres she was equalling Paul Morris's race pace at HD (low 1.06's) and she has never been to HD before. I don't know what her final times where as we only spent 1.5hrs there, but i wouldn't be surprised if she improved some more. Watching her exit T1 it was clear that she was confident to get on the throttle a bit earlier than some of the other drivers who were there. And if she does get the gig and her and Andre pair up (they are a couple) for the enduros then that would be a real boost as well.

There was a bit of 'fizz' in the air for the short time we spent there. All the negative tripe that you read on the likes of Track Torque is just not true. ST are working hard on making the category what it should be, and that is at the top, and with great drivers and full grids. I'd love to know who writes for Track Torque, as to me it seems very amateurish, and something a 16 year old would write....just my opinion.

I spent a fair bit of time speaking to Owen Evans while his star-son Mitch was doing laps. He mentioned some interesting things, and when it comes from the 'horses mouth' so to speak, then you have to stand up and listen. He mentioned that there is literally a queue of drivers in Aus who want to get into these things as it is a logical step to DVS and SC. He also mentioned that the running costs of NZST and TLX are about the same, and some front running TL's are up there as well, i.e. about 250k per season. Now I know this goes against what Mark Petch posted on here a while ago, but this number does seem to be the common denominator for running a full season. I am not going to bother getting into a 'he said, she said' type thing here with Mark because that would be pointless, but the 250k/yr does seem to be the minimum budget. I am sure there are teams who run on less than that, but whether or not they are at the pointy end is another thing.

It was also rumoured that Tony D'Alberto is eyeing up Foggys seat. This will be another boost for the series as they will be a title contender one would think. Also rumoured was the possibility of Andy Booth returning to the series, but of course it is just rumour. It did however come from someone close to Andy. If things like this do happen we could actually have quite a unique thing going on here where the old Ford vs Holden thing has been battered to death, and maybe the series will become NZ vs Aus?

A few of the other Aussie hopefuls mentioned in Velocities report all seemed to rave about the cars, and this soon filters back to other people in Aus. Add to that the fact that Brad Jones was wanting to attend but could not due to a date clash, says a lot as well. I think its quite possible that NZST may have V8SC satellite teams for this year, whether that be for the rest of the 14/15 season, or the 15/16 season I don't know, but it all does look promising. It seems that whenever a young person gets into one of these things they just rave about them. So if Macauley Jones likes them (when he gets a fang in one) and the $$ makes sense then we could see a BJR entry in to NZST. I would then go one step further and say that others would be looking as well (GRM, T8, maybe even FPR??).

NZST tell us there should be 10-12 cars for the first sprint, and gradually building from there. They are certainly putting in the ground work, which is great.

I think its clear to all that NZST have hit a low point, which I think is actually a good thing. You have to hit rock-bottom some times to realise where you can improve. I honestly believe this is the beginning of a turning point with NZST, but we shall see I guess.

We are looking forward to the 1st sprint round where hopefully there will be a few surprises there

Cheers

Stu

[pukekoheracer]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Yes it was a pretty nice day at HD yesterday watching a handful of ST's fire up and turn some laps. Smeg where there, as was Hydraulink, JMR, iSport, and the Varneys, all looking battered and bruised from the enduros, but with the JMR Falcon basically all black, as we know they are chasing new sponsors, and hopefully have them signing on the dotted line too.

Velocity have done a much better report on the day than speedcafe (no surprises) and can be found on this link...

https://www.facebook.com/VelocityNews

Renee, if she can make it, will be a huge boost for the category. Not only is she a really nice and genuine person, but she is clearly a good peddler as well. Mark Heimgartner was telling me that she was quite proud of the fact that she administers greater brake pressure than Paul Morris! so she is good under brakes. Within 10 or so laps on decent tyres she was equalling Paul Morris's race pace at HD (low 1.06's) and she has never been to HD before. I don't know what her final times where as we only spent 1.5hrs there, but i wouldn't be surprised if she improved some more. Watching her exit T1 it was clear that she was confident to get on the throttle a bit earlier than some of the other drivers who were there. And if she does get the gig and her and Andre pair up (they are a couple) for the enduros then that would be a real boost as well.

There was a bit of 'fizz' in the air for the short time we spent there. All the negative tripe that you read on the likes of Track Torque is just not true. ST are working hard on making the category what it should be, and that is at the top, and with great drivers and full grids. I'd love to know who writes for Track Torque, as to me it seems very amateurish, and something a 16 year old would write....just my opinion.

I spent a fair bit of time speaking to Owen Evans while his star-son Mitch was doing laps. He mentioned some interesting things, and when it comes from the 'horses mouth' so to speak, then you have to stand up and listen. He mentioned that there is literally a queue of drivers in Aus who want to get into these things as it is a logical step to DVS and SC. He also mentioned that the running costs of NZST and TLX are about the same, and some front running TL's are up there as well, i.e. about 250k per season. Now I know this goes against what Mark Petch posted on here a while ago, but this number does seem to be the common denominator for running a full season. I am not going to bother getting into a 'he said, she said' type thing here with Mark because that would be pointless, but the 250k/yr does seem to be the minimum budget. I am sure there are teams who run on less than that, but whether or not they are at the pointy end is another thing.

It was also rumoured that Tony D'Alberto is eyeing up Foggys seat. This will be another boost for the series as they will be a title contender one would think. Also rumoured was the possibility of Andy Booth returning to the series, but of course it is just rumour. It did however come from someone close to Andy. If things like this do happen we could actually have quite a unique thing going on here where the old Ford vs Holden thing has been battered to death, and maybe the series will become NZ vs Aus?

A few of the other Aussie hopefuls mentioned in Velocities report all seemed to rave about the cars, and this soon filters back to other people in Aus. Add to that the fact that Brad Jones was wanting to attend but could not due to a date clash, says a lot as well. I think its quite possible that NZST may have V8SC satellite teams for this year, whether that be for the rest of the 14/15 season, or the 15/16 season I don't know, but it all does look promising. It seems that whenever a young person gets into one of these things they just rave about them. So if Macauley Jones likes them (when he gets a fang in one) and the $$ makes sense then we could see a BJR entry in to NZST. I would then go one step further and say that others would be looking as well (GRM, T8, maybe even FPR??).

NZST tell us there should be 10-12 cars for the first sprint, and gradually building from there. They are certainly putting in the ground work, which is great.

I think its clear to all that NZST have hit a low point, which I think is actually a good thing. You have to hit rock-bottom some times to realise where you can improve. I honestly believe this is the beginning of a turning point with NZST, but we shall see I guess.

We are looking forward to the 1st sprint round where hopefully there will be a few surprises there

Cheers

Stu

Thanks for the Post Stu, looking forward to see how it pans out this year. I think there has always been a lot of Interest from Oz anyway. Re the Budgets, I have heard around $30,000 per round and when you have 6/7 rounds it not hard to see budgets at $200,000 to $250,000. I think for a half decent DVS Car its a lot more than that per round and a ST is a lot closer to a V8SC than a 3/4 years old DVS model so it makes ST look like a great deal.

[NZSTfan]

Yeah i'd say your right there puke, a source told me it costs about $1Mill to run a campaign in DVS and those cars are no where near as nice to drive as an ST from what I can tell. Also add the fact that the ST is basically the NewGen car, then it makes sense to chuck your driver into one of these (or both ST and DVS if you have the budget) as the common chassis experience would set you up nicely for a crack at V8SC. Just look at Scott and soon to be chucked in the deep end, Andre.
Ant has done okay out of it too.

Its like Owen said to me yesterday, it doesn't matter what sport you play, the more you play it, the better you become. Which of course makes perfect sense, but even more so when talking about racing miles, as opposed to say a Tennis player who just needs access to a tennis court and a suitable opponent. Getting those racing miles costs a lot of money, but if done properly will yield dividends.

Stu

[raymond]

Budgets are a moving feast.
As you say Mark mentioned a figure and you in your post mention that budgets to run a TLX are the same as a ST. These can only be generalised statements.

I know of factual budgets as I was involved with running a TL in both the height of the class; and when it run as part of challenge cup. At no time was Matt's budget the year he won the Challenge Cup anywhere near the big figures you mention. Nowdays TL budgets are a fraction of what they use to be because the teams aren't employing mechanics or "data analysts" from Aussie...they are doing it themselves.

Another fact is the verbal and written statements from Nick Ross that last year he spent $60K for the season. He provides accounts and balance sheets to prove it. I have no reason to not believe it.
I also know that a lease deal for a ST has become a hell of a lot cheaper than what it was a year ago. That's good because we need to see more of these cars out, so what is stopping the Aussies coming now!

Tim Edwards was interviewed at a Supercar round last year, and let slip a figure that was close to the one you state, to run in the DVS series.

But over the years we all know that motorsport budgets that are quoted are very subjective. In the end you spend what you have....otherwise the wife gets decidedly grumpy. I can tell you it would be cheaper to lease a ST for the season than run a top car in NZRC...however I think I would have an unhealthy attraction to the gravel traps.

I hope that V8ST do restore the numbers on the grid, especially down south.

[NZSTfan]

Good post Raymond budgets are a funny thing aren't they? You hear stuff, you see stuff and you get told stuff from direct sources. I think one thing an inexperienced newbie like me can conclude is that the sport we love and cherish is not cheap.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

Yeah i'd say your right there puke, a source told me it costs about $1Mill to run a campaign in DVS and those cars are no where near as nice to drive as an ST from what I can tell. Also add the fact that the ST is basically the NewGen car, then it makes sense to chuck your driver into one of these (or both ST and DVS if you have the budget) as the common chassis experience would set you up nicely for a crack at V8SC. Just look at Scott and soon to be chucked in the deep end, Andre.
Ant has done okay out of it too.

Its like Owen said to me yesterday, it doesn't matter what sport you play, the more you play it, the better you become. Which of course makes perfect sense, but even more so when talking about racing miles, as opposed to say a Tennis player who just needs access to a tennis court and a suitable opponent. Getting those racing miles costs a lot of money, but if done properly will yield dividends.

Stu

Stu,
Please don't believe everything you are told, firstly I ran DVS with Kayne Scott for two years [5 years ago] so I know exactly what it cost then and as a partner in Team 4, I am well aware what it will cost to run in Simon in a top DVS car for this season and it is no were near a million dollars, try half plus crash damage, travel etc and call it A$600K and you would be on the money, unless you are dead unlucky with crash damage etc that should get you a very good car in a very good team.

Owen is correct in his estimate of the cost of a "rock up and drive" budget. But Teams like the the Edgells and AV8 can field a very competitive car for way less than $200K.

As for Raymond spruking on about Nick Ross 60K "Pig's will fly first" before he could prove that to anybody that knows anything at all about running a National championship series.

As I said before Steve Varney has been on both sides of the fence and he will tell you if you care to engage him in conversation that the cost to him, as the principal bill payer is about the same between his TLX FG Falcon and his V8ST FG Falcon.

You mean well Stu, so I am not trying to denigrate your post/posts on V8ST cars however, the fact is that you are a fan not a team owner, so its only natural that you will continue to have trouble sorting out fact from fiction.

I like and appreciate your enthusiasm for V8ST just wish you would be a little more circumspect in the future with sweeping statements.

In computer language Garbage in is Garbage out Savvy?

[raymond]

Spruking?

As I said Stu, you see that budgets are a subjective thing.

Within a class; the budgets vary wildly as we have seen in the past with many of our National Championships from Shellsport to Formula Ford to Rallying to Hillclimbing.

Mark obviously doesn't believe Nick, maybe he should talk to him.

What is pretty obvious is that the sport in NZ doesn't have huge commercial input for the amount of $$$ spent and that most of our competitors pay for it out of their own pockets.

Lets hope some $$$ have managed to get to some of the Supertourer teams because we need more of the cars out there to follow the increasing numbers trend we have seen in other top tier classes

[Kiwi race fan]

Originally Posted by HProject

Here's another shot of the Hyundai - pic taken by one of the staffers at Manfeild Raceway:

I thought all these V8ST cars were tied/franchised/contracted into the V8ST Series & could only be used in official V8ST events.

So how does this car slip through the cracks when the V8ST class so desperately need all the numbers they can muster?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by raymond

Spruking?

As I said Stu, you see that budgets are a subjective thing.

Within a class; the budgets vary wildly as we have seen in the past with many of our National Championships from Shellsport to Formula Ford to Rallying to Hillclimbing.

Mark obviously doesn't believe Nick, maybe he should talk to him.

What is pretty obvious is that the sport in NZ doesn't have huge commercial input for the amount of $$$ spent and that most of our competitors pay for it out of their own pockets.

Lets hope some $$$ have managed to get to some of the Supertourer teams because we need more of the cars out there to follow the increasing numbers trend we have seen in other top tier classes

What classes are they Crunch?

[NZSTfan]

Thanks for the info Mark, as always it is much appreciated.

Stu

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by raymond

As I said Stu, you see that budgets are a subjective thing.

I remember chatting to a driver in World Series by Nissan (as it was then) after he joined the marshals very early in a qualifying session. The series was reputed to be good value compared with similar cars in other series and the subject of budgets came up. He described a typical budget for racing as being:

"However much you've got, it's all of that plus accident damage"

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by raymond

Another fact is the verbal and written statements from Nick Ross that last year he spent $60K for the season. He provides accounts and balance sheets to prove it. I have no reason to not believe it.

Pretty remarkable that anyone can build a brand new (new) car and run it for a season whilst spending less than $60k.....

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

Pretty remarkable that anyone can build a brand new (new) car and run it for a season whilst spending less than $60k.....

Whats even more remarkable is that somebody of Crunch's experience and position in the organization of New Zealand motorsport would actually believe that.

Just the travel costs to the two meeting's in the South Island will eat up 10K, let alone the cost of all the consumables and factoring in all the maintenance provision's that so often get forgotten in peoples budget's. As it does not matter if you do all the work yourself, because it's still man hours that could bring in revenue, which is why people like Jacko [Wayne Anderson] cost all of their time taken on his, or his son's Tony's race car doing all the regular maintenance, at his normal charge out rate because if they are not working on their race cars they would be working on a customers race car.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

What classes are they Crunch?

In no particular order, F5000, Historic Muscle Cars, Open Class NZRC, Formula Ford, Formula First, NZ Hillclimb Championship, NZ Drag Racing, Historic Sports Sedans, NZGT, NZV8, NZ Drift Championship are classes that this year have increased the numbers entered. I'm sure there are more but I guess it comes down to a subjective decision of what each individual calls top tier of motorsport.

My comment wasn't to incite a comparison between ST and NZV8, it was a general comment.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Whats even more remarkable is that somebody of Crunch's experience and position in the organization of New Zealand motorsport would actually believe that.

What's not to believe?

As long as you ignore the couple of hundred grand it likely cost to start the season with a new chassis fresh engine, gearbox and assorted spares which accompany as part of their spend is it that hard to believe that $60k could cover you for a year?

Even within that $60k there's probably savings you could make as long as you purchased a motel and restaurant near each track....

Seriously though, shows why context is important in saying X cost $X a season....

[raymond]

[QUOTE=Mark Petch;3493150]Whats even more remarkable is that somebody of Crunch's experience and position in the organization of New Zealand motorsport would actually believe that.

QUOTE]


That's 'cos unless people have previously proved otherwise, why would I not believe what people tell me?
I find Nick an honest guy who loves what he is doing, much like 99% of the rest of the competitors that talk to me out there.

Gotta keep an open mind and open ears my dad use to say....

[Icarus_nz]

That's 'cos unless people have previously proved otherwise, why would I not believe what people tell me?
I find Nick an honest guy who loves what he is doing, much like 99% of the rest of the competitors that talk to me out there.

Gotta keep an open mind and open ears my dad use to say....

The thing my Dad used to say about open minds was more often than not it appeared that the brains had fallen out.

Let it be said. I'm absolutely certain that Nick Ross believes his season cost $60,000. And if you keep the receipts for all the things you had to buy from the moment your left home until you returned at the end of the weekend you might be able to keep it to that

But that sort of accounting conveniently ignores the true cost.
Within that figure there won't be any maintenance or commercial remuneration for the people making his dream come true.

True cost means assigning a value to everything that goes into the campaign.

If you can convince a mate to work for free he is - in effect - a sponsor. Otherwise you do it all yourself or you pay someone else.
Stay at a fella's place? - sponsor
And so on


Crunch, if you were a team owner of say a TLX or NZST and wanted to break-even at the end of the season, what would you charge per round?

You tip in none of your own money.
Assume no crash damage or other mechanical dramas

Don't forget to factor in the cost of ensuring the car is as good at the end of the season as it was at the beginning...

Also remember the costs associated with the tow vehicle and its upkeep (Rego, WOF, Fuel, Ferry, Road Tax)

Once you start making lists and think about any shortfall coming out of your mortgage, you'll start to see

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

The thing my Dad used to say about open minds was more often than not it appeared that the brains had fallen out.

Let it be said. I'm absolutely certain that Nick Ross believes his season cost $60,000. And if you keep the receipts for all the things you had to buy from the moment your left home until you returned at the end of the weekend you might be able to keep it to that

But that sort of accounting conveniently ignores the true cost.
Within that figure there won't be any maintenance or commercial remuneration for the people making his dream come true.

True cost means assigning a value to everything that goes into the campaign.

If you can convince a mate to work for free he is - in effect - a sponsor. Otherwise you do it all yourself or you pay someone else.
Stay at a fella's place? - sponsor
And so on


Crunch, if you were a team owner of say a TLX or NZST and wanted to break-even at the end of the season, what would you charge per round?

You tip in none of your own money.
Assume no crash damage or other mechanical dramas

Don't forget to factor in the cost of ensuring the car is as good at the end of the season as it was at the beginning...

Also remember the costs associated with the tow vehicle and its upkeep (Rego, WOF, Fuel, Ferry, Road Tax)

Once you start making lists and think about any shortfall coming out of your mortgage, you'll start to see

Dear ICARUS,

Can you please top talking/Posting so much common sense. The next thing is that people like Raymond /Crunch Bennett will start believing every word you you write, and we cant have that can we.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Crunch, if you were a team owner of say a TLX or NZST and wanted to break-even at the end of the season, what would you charge per round?

Not sure really; but I would charge what the market demanded. If you want someone to drive your car, and if there is a number of available options, then price accordingly.
I know what the best offer we got for a ST a few months ago was, and it was a very good price. Unfortunately I cannot say what that was. We also were offered a TLX and the price was slightly less. I do know in the heyday of the TL's that the lease cost was making someone some good coin as $30K a round was to me; just not justifiable.
But like we have been saying about budgets; any amount can be justified as long as someone is willing to pay.
There are not as many of those people in any forms of our sport nowdays

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Dear ICARUS,

Can you please top talking/Posting so much common sense. The next thing is that people like Raymond /Crunch Bennett will start believing every word you you write, and we cant have that can we.

Thanks Mark.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by raymond

Not sure really; but I would charge what the market demanded. If you want someone to drive your car, and if there is a number of available options, then price accordingly.
I know what the best offer we got for a ST a few months ago was, and it was a very good price. Unfortunately I cannot say what that was. We also were offered a TLX and the price was slightly less. I do know in the heyday of the TL's that the lease cost was making someone some good coin as $30K a round was to me; just not justifiable.
But like we have been saying about budgets; any amount can be justified as long as someone is willing to pay.
There are not as many of those people in any forms of our sport nowdays

I'll rephrase my question because what we are trying establish is what constitutes a realistic running budget, not what an individual is or isn't prepared to tip in.

What would you charge per round to ensure you kept 'your pants on' (I.e break even) at the end of the deal?

You see, the trouble right at the moment is that you're coming across as a fella with a tenuous grasp of financial reality.
And I didn't think you were.

[raymond]

$15K

Price we were quoted for a front running car

[tailgater]

I have been reading this thread with interest, as far as I can gather there are 2 parties trying to claim V8ST is cost effective, and another 2 claiming NZV8 is a better option.

From where I am sitting as a fan I think you guys need to consider the fact that both camps are too far gone? Guys running TLX cars must just be in too deep to admit they made a mistake, you aren't going to get enough guys wanting to pay big money to have cars built to join your series. The TL cars look like a field of super sixes or HQ's in reality, a good concept but at club level.

V8ST had a great thing going that obviously costs far too much money, I have seen the smeg racing operation this year and I can't help but think theres more than 250k being spent there, the hospitality for the 25+ crew they have would cost close to that before they have paid engineers, supercar drivers expenses, car cost etc etc etc. It seems that this may have priced this series out of peoples reach?

Have you guys considered the option of just giving up? Would it be better to just say "we ****** up" with the case of V8ST you guys would have to admit that your championship is beyond recovery now, if it were a business you would be looking at winding it up and admitting that it didn't work why should this be any different?

I don't mean to be rude I just don't understand why you are all still arguing about which rotten fish head looks tastier.

[20b]

What would be the point in investing hundreds of thousands of dollars only to be told by the CEO 'we're shutting up shop'. It'll never happen.

I wouldn't say either series is too expensive to race in. If you're even considering racing in either series you've already got to have some decent money in the family as it is. So why get involved in the Tier One series' if you've not got the coin?

Neither series is beyond the point of recovery, it's retaining the fans interest that is the issue at the moment. Plenty of damage has been done already so it'll be years until you see anything like what we were used to about a decade ago.

From a spectators point of view, I think the TLX is a better car to watch. it looks and sounds fast and has attitude. The SuperTourer however has more of a drone to it, and lacks any real character. So there you've got two issues - a series which has a visually and audibly appealing car, but few of them, and another that has a quality car but is mundane to watch. That's my opinion at least.

SuperTourers are making a conscientious decision to get international interest in the series. Perhaps that is where they will grow a decent field for 2016 and onwards. As far as I'm concerned 2015 will be a year spent getting guys involved in the series from overseas, not domestically.

[Ugy]

Originally Posted by 20b

What would be the point in investing hundreds of thousands of dollars only to be told by the CEO 'we're shutting up shop'. It'll never happen.

I wouldn't say either series is too expensive to race in. If you're even considering racing in either series you've already got to have some decent money in the family as it is. So why get involved in the Tier One series' if you've not got the coin?

Neither series is beyond the point of recovery, it's retaining the fans interest that is the issue at the moment. Plenty of damage has been done already so it'll be years until you see anything like what we were used to about a decade ago.

From a spectators point of view, I think the TLX is a better car to watch. it looks and sounds fast and has attitude. The SuperTourer however has more of a drone to it, and lacks any real character. So there you've got two issues - a series which has a visually and audibly appealing car, but few of them, and another that has a quality car but is mundane to watch. That's my opinion at least.

SuperTourers are making a conscientious decision to get international interest in the series. Perhaps that is where they will grow a decent field for 2016 and onwards. As far as I'm concerned 2015 will be a year spent getting guys involved in the series from overseas, not domestically.

Sorry disagree, with Holden and Ford closing shop it's going to get better?