British GT

[KA]

Originally Posted by Viper GTS-R***

Yeah i know that a few years ago there where a lot of GT1's.
But on a few little circuit's in Britain i'm not shure it will be save to have all those GT1 cars. I know in the year's 1998 untill 2002 there race'd a lot of BIG GT1's but if i look on the site http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo_natgt.html i just find picture's of race's on Donington, Silverstone and Spa (B). So i don't know at the moment if they (the GT1's) also race'd on for acample Oulton Park, Croft, Castle Combe,... and the other litlle circuit's..

Yes they did, at all three of those you mentioned, although British GT hasn't ever been to smaller cricuits like Lydden or Mallory Park. I guess that no-one has yet submitted any pics to RSC from British GT races other than Donington Silverstone or Spa- (I can't help on that one either, as all of my BGT spectating has been at Brands, Donington or Silverstone...)

[KA]

Originally Posted by JAG

If a team is unhappy running a restricted 430GTC thats no quicker than a Morgan with performance breaks, maybe they are in the wrong series.

The problem is that I suspect that's exactly what will happen- Scuderia Ecosse and LNT would go off to race in Europe full-time, and a lot of the GTC teams would probably head off to Britcar rather than try and compete against restricted GT2s, leaving probably a couple of old 911GT2s or Vipers and a handful of GT3s if we're lucky....

The more I think about it, the more I think the future may be a combination of GT3 and the present GTC classes

[archibold]

Have to agree GT3 with GTC (for now but phasing out in 2-3 years) is the way forward, trying to have a National series above GT3 is going to be difficult when you have LMS/FIA GTs to go to. The advantage of GT3 are that they are tightly homologated can be bought "off the shelf" and are not that expensive to run (especially if you stay with Porsche/Viper/'vette and away from the 430/Aston - possibly also the Ascari/Trofeo/Lambo but I am not sure on these as I have only priced the former). Running old GT1/2s etc requires an enourmous investment in parts and getting sufficient numbers now that most have gone will be v v difficult.

Also don't agree that the BTCC is a strong series...how many drivers are paid professionals this year?

Also not convinced by the argument that promotion is the problem...if the product was strong enough people would pay to come come and the budget for promotion would follow...it's either a reinforcing/vicious circle depending upon which way the momentum is going...

Archibold

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by archibold

Also don't agree that the BTCC is a strong series...how many drivers are paid professionals this year?

I dont know this for 100% certain but im 95% sure that the following list are all professional drivers in this years BTCC.

Gordon Shedden Team Halfords
Matt Neal Team Halfords
Colin Turkington Team RAC
Rob Collard Team RAC
Tom Chilton VX Racing
Fabrizio Giovanardi VX Racing
Gavin Smith VX Racing
Jason Plato SEAT Sport UK
Darren Turner SEAT Sport UK

Now thats 9 drivers, the BTCC had a total of 18 drivers for the most recent round at Thruxton, so 50% of the BTCC field is made up of professional drivers by my estimation. Who are the professional drivers in British GT? I can only think of these off the top of my head.

Tim Mullen Scuderia Ecosse
Luke Hines LNT
Tom Kimber Smith LNT

Can anyone think of any that I have missed? Drivers like Mark Cole and Calum Lockie, Neil Cunningham and Damien Faulkner are all good drivers but I dont beleive any of them are being paid to race in British GT this year.

[Audi R8R]

Once again I hear the moans and complaints about the (original) GT1 cars being axed, and then the other GT1 cars being axed, then the lack of cars on the grid at Mondello Park.

When some of the 'online fantasy GT team owners' have actually tried to physically run a GT1 car (or even a GT2 come to that) and found that it is ridiculously expensive and that running a car like that in a national championship isn't great business sense, then, I'll start listening. Motor racing is a damn expensive way to go about your working week, there's no wonder the British series got rid of GT1's they were being phased out of international racing, let alone a feeder national series...

The reason the French series runs with these cars is because its based around gentlemen drivers that have an awful lot of money to spend. The GT3 class has seen to that in the UK, and will do now on an international scale.
Oh, and the Mosler is never going to be a GT1 car, performance breaks or not, its a GT2 car. It can't keep pace with the current Ferrari 430 and Panoz, what does anyone expect it to do against GT1 machinery..?

As for the size of the grids in the current British Championship. Mondello tends to always be the round that the team with less budget skip, due to travel costs and other things, usually the lack of space and run off and the amount of damage that can be picked up with two races at that venue.

The British series will be completely GT3 next season anyway, so why the worry about this years championship?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I dont know this for 100% certain but im 95% sure that the following list are all professional drivers in this years BTCC.

Gordon Shedden Team Halfords
Matt Neal Team Halfords
Colin Turkington Team RAC
Rob Collard Team RAC
Tom Chilton VX Racing
Fabrizio Giovanardi VX Racing
Gavin Smith VX Racing
Jason Plato SEAT Sport UK
Darren Turner SEAT Sport UK

Now thats 9 drivers, the BTCC had a total of 18 drivers for the most recent round at Thruxton, so 50% of the BTCC field is made up of professional drivers by my estimation. Who are the professional drivers in British GT? I can only think of these off the top of my head.

Tim Mullen Scuderia Ecosse
Luke Hines LNT
Tom Kimber Smith LNT

Can anyone think of any that I have missed? Drivers like Mark Cole and Calum Lockie, Neil Cunningham and Damien Faulkner are all good drivers but I dont beleive any of them are being paid to race in British GT this year.

Of the BTCC drivers, I believe that Gavin Smith and Gordon Sheddon owe their respective positions due to their sponsorship and I suspect that any wages they collect is due to them retaining some sponsorship money, although I could be wrong. With regard to Callum Lockie, Autosport reported a couple of months back that he will be paid for his British GT exploits. Ever way, the point is valid in that if the number of drivers who are paid directly by their team to race is used as a measure of strength of a series, then the BTCC probably comes out ahead.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Viper GTS-R***

I would like it to see the GT1's back at British GT, just like they say with the RML Saleen, GNM Saleen, Balfe Saleen (britsh gt should be better for him), Lister Storm, Brockspeed Viper, ACB (Autoracing Club Bratislava) Viper, JMB 575, etc...

The Lister Storm could possibly still be competitive in British GT, perhaps given a small performance advantage - let's not forget it was either 1st or 2nd (in either GT or GTL guise) right the way from '97/'98 to the end of 2002, and Balfe Motorsport would have found British GT incredibly handy whilst they try to gain experience with their Saleen.

Add in an old C5-R, couple of 550's (there surely must be some of those still lying around!?) and perhaps a Viper or two - I believe the Ultima GTR also ran in GT1 a few times with Colin Blower so there are some more unusual cars still out there too. It's a longshot definitely but not absolutely impossible.

However, I also think the series would be flying high if GT3 got off the ground in numbers and they also attracted the sort of GT2 grids we saw between '03 and '05 - Over that time we've seen Porsches, 360's, 430's, TVR's, Moslers, Ultimas, XK8's, 'Vette C5's, Monaros and even a Diablo - those sort of cars mixed in with the new breed of GT3's would still make a mouth watering grid, and some great racing to go with it.

I don't mind GTC as a "supporting" class at circuits like Mondello where the interest from the top-end cars is naturally lower, but when the class makes up all but 3 of the cars on the entire grid then surely the alarm bells must be ringing!

One of the great attractions with most GT racing (particularly those with plenty of GT1's and GT2's) is that the cars alone are worth going to see, whatever the quality of the racing. So it's all very well BGT boasting a good grid size with some half-decent drivers in it, but if there's only about 5 or 6 cars worth watching then what's the point?

[SALEEN S7R]

Im not so sure that the Lister Storm would be as fast as the top GT2 cars in British GT to be honest, last year in FIA GT it was barely any faster than the lead GT2 class porsches, normally the gap was around 1 second in qualifying. This year the GT2 class cars performance has been increased signifcantly by the addition of the new Ferrari 430 and as has been seen both at LM and the ALMS/FIA GT/LMS the 430 is quite a bit faster than the 996. When the new 997 is eligable for GT2 I think that the cars will be faster again, I think is expected that the 997 will be slightly quicker than the 430.

Given some fairly big performance breaks the car could be faster than the lead GT2 cars yes, but they would be fairly big I think. The Lister is at the end of its development potential, perhaps even more so than the Viper. I like the Lister as much as everyone, but the car is old now and to me knowing that the car is being made artifically fast doesent appeal. If it were to run Id prefer to see it running to current GT1 regulations. Of course if that happens the car will be behind the quicker GT2 cars. IMO.

[Audi R8R]

You're all forgetting that teams invest heavily in purchasing a state of the art GT car and want to run it in as big an environment as possible.
So, you're looking at taking your GT1 investment to FIA GT or ALMS/LMES.

Why would you purchase a Saleen, Lister Storm, Aston, Corvette (C5R or C6R) and run it in a national series. Unless of course your paying driver (gentlemen driver) wants to race in the UK only....

Why run at a track like Mondello, when you could go across to Paul Ricard or Brno? Or Spa for 24 hours?

[Graham Goodwin]

But we've been here before - The simple fact is that nobody came forward with the budget to bring a GT1 car, never mind enough for a class contest.

GT1 for the time being at least is a non-starter for Brit GT.

Whilst it's all well and good playing 'Fantasy British GT' the fact is it is not going to happen any time soon.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

But we've been here before - The simple fact is that nobody came forward with the budget to bring a GT1 car, never mind enough for a class contest.

GT1 for the time being at least is a non-starter for Brit GT.

Whilst it's all well and good playing 'Fantasy British GT' the fact is it is not going to happen any time soon.

Oh I can pretty much accept that GT1's a gonner now - just isn't an impossibility. Very unlikely though, yes. But surely when a series with as good a reputation as BGT can only attract (probably) 3-4 GT2 cars for most of a season, let alone even thinking about GT1 - doesn't that even worry some people?

[Viper GTS-R***]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Oh I can pretty much accept that GT1's a gonner now - just isn't an impossibility. Very unlikely though, yes. But surely when a series with as good a reputation as BGT can only attract (probably) 3-4 GT2 cars for most of a season, let alone even thinking about GT1 - doesn't that even worry some people?

I'm 100% agree with you BOB
But National GT Championships are as we know, not that as FIA GT, LMS etc. Al the NGT's always can be better, take a look at Italian GT, what about that? Only 15 entry's... allright a few great cars: 2 MC12's, 1 Saleen, 1 F575, 1 Viper GTS-R, few F430's, Lambo Gallardo, Dodge Viper GT3. And then look to Spanish GT, what a powerfull GT2 and GT3 field. Somebody see the vision i see?? Make one GT Championship of those 2, all the Italian GT1's together with all those GT2 and GT3's of Spanish GT. Such like a Méditerian GT Championship with race's in Italia, Spain and Portugal? Looks great i think There's just one national GT Championship who's in a super great move, FFSA GT the French GT. So i think to make better Natiol GT CHampionShips is to bring them Together...
It's a very big deal i know, but with a great result i think...

[TheNewBob]

National series have mixed countries before - British GT used to have it's Spa race and it's already down for 2 races in France this year. In return Belcar and Euro GT have come to Britain as well in the past.

Trouble is money again - it costs big notes to go travellin'...

Also bring too much of it together and it becomes a GT-only LMS rival...

[JAG]

Is British GT a feeder series, or a Championship in it's own right that can grow?

With so many low volume manufactuers in this country, you'd think BGT fields would be filled with oddball specials.

As for attracting spectators, well Oulton Park didn't do too badly. Was that down to promotion, the bank holiday date, what?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

Oh I can pretty much accept that GT1's a gonner now - just isn't an impossibility. Very unlikely though, yes. But surely when a series with as good a reputation as BGT can only attract (probably) 3-4 GT2 cars for most of a season, let alone even thinking about GT1 - doesn't that even worry some people?

Will GT3 make any difference, or will teams run a season in BGT, then upsticks to FIA GT3?

If the series was for LMP3's and a run what you bring GT class (or two) your focus would be soley on the UK.

[archibold]

I think you don't see many "specials" as you put it as it is v. difficult to fight the development budgets of Porsche/Ferrari etc. and gain homologation. Ascari might be an exception here as they can afford it anyway due to Klaus, but in general it is going to get harder and harder to build something in a shed and compete with the manufacturer developed cars. Also with no brand recognition it's going to be difficult to get backing.

GT3 will be strong next year and no teams will not just up and go to the FIA series after 1 year as you must then run three cars with two recognised drivers (IIRC) at all rounds. Additionally there can be no more than 9 cars of a marque in the series and most of the best picks are already full. SRO had most of the cars/teams sorted well before the first race this year to protect the investment of the teams that committed early.

Much better in my opinion to let the GT2's move up to FIA and let the well balanced GT3s fight it out to the flag instead of having 3-6 faster cars in front. The current GTC will move to GT3 as the cars in GTC age and it becomes more sense to run a GT3.

Archibold

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by archibold

Much better in my opinion to let the GT2's move up to FIA and let the well balanced GT3s fight it out to the flag instead of having 3-6 faster cars in front. The current GTC will move to GT3 as the cars in GTC age and it becomes more sense to run a GT3.

GTC teams will probably move to GT3 as they realise they'd be buying into more competitive machinery. However, GTC already has aged cars - none of the cars are new. The 996 and 360 have been around for years now, the Morgan has been in the class since '03, and the Marcos Mantis has been around since the early-to-mid 90's! There isn't much new machinery in BGT at the moment...

[Truckosaurus]

I noticed that Ascari are due to be entering their KZ1 GT3 cars in the Snetterton round of BGT.

Weren't they previously outlawed due to their carbon fibre chassis, which is why Embassy withdrew?

[Graham Goodwin]

The GT3 car is fine - The Carbon chassis is banned in GT2 (which is the spec the Embassy car would have been)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

The GT3 car is fine - The Carbon chassis is banned in GT2 (which is the spec the Embassy car would have been)

So two competitive GT2 cars, and British GT turn away a potentially competitive GT2 Ascari from a respected team like Embassy!

[Truckosaurus]

Don't forget to count the 2 ProSport cars that are also now eligible for GT2

[KA]

I'd be surprised to see either Prosport again in BGT....

[JAG]

Looking at GT3 qualifying (FIA GT) the fastest cars would qualify just behind the leading GT2 cars.

I hope theres potential for 15-20 competitive GT3 cars in the British series.

[Alex Toropov]

Originally Posted by Viper GTS-R***

I'm 100% agree with you BOB
But National GT Championships are as we know, not that as FIA GT, LMS etc. Al the NGT's always can be better, take a look at Italian GT, what about that? Only 15 entry's... allright a few great cars: 2 MC12's, 1 Saleen, 1 F575, 1 Viper GTS-R, few F430's, Lambo Gallardo, Dodge Viper GT3.

regarding Italian GT Series, where can I get some info about it in english, if it's possible? schedule, entries & so on...
watched a bit of it's race on RAI Sport Sat in May (from Misano, I reckon), but never saw any races again on TV schedule. when will be next one, anyone knows?

[Viper GTS-R***]

Originally Posted by Alex Toropov

regarding Italian GT Series, where can I get some info about it in english, if it's possible? schedule, entries & so on...
watched a bit of it's race on RAI Sport Sat in May (from Misano, I reckon), but never saw any races again on TV schedule. when will be next one, anyone knows?

I don't have any site's of it in English, but here is a site where you can see the results of each race, http://www.italiaracing.net/news_gt%...at=GT_ITALIANO
It's in Italian, but if you try a lil bit to translate then you will see it isn't that difficult and offcourse reading the results have nothing to do with languagues after Misano the italian gt has alreaddy visit Vallelunga, Magione and Mugello. The Maserati MC12 wins the most of the race's...