McLaren have a further four-week wait/McLaren apology

[foreversideways]

Perhaps Max and the FIA "Water-boarded " Ron to get the apology.

[andy_b]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

andy b:


I guess so...if you call 1960-2007 new to the sport....

My comment has more to do with what should be appropriate civilised behaviour rather than what is accepted as 'normal' behaviour amongst those involved in the political machinations we have at present.

It is not purely objective but more subjective, my opinion about what behaviour should be like, rather than what people actually do do to each other.

Sorry, I wasnt having a go, just trying to be funny. F1 is nothing like reality. I've seen it from the inside as well as the outside. Been like that for years, but this year, takes the buscuit.

[clioracer]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

You mean like how Fernando was made to say Mclaren's a great team before he could walk out on his contract?

I'm glad that Mclaren has apologized, thereby putting much things into perspective. Ron's a man who believes in his principles, and i doubt he will let Mclaren apologize if he think the team's innocent. And appropriately, Max has asked for closure too.

Principles? yes Ron has principles i`m quite sure of that, trouble is there are others who it would seem do not.
I do however think that Ron would apologise anyway and quite possibly (hopefully) be thinking to himself there are times when you have to do the exact opposite of what you should be doing but that is life in this game sometimes at present anyway.
Closure? max? pah! the man is an idiot if he believes for one minute that anyone with an ounce of common sense believes the things he says and his logic!

[Inigo Montoya]

Even when McLaren admits that they were wrong, they are not wrong?

I, for one (maybe the only one) am disappointed with McLaren. They are a team in complete disarray. They had a WDC in their grasp and let it slip away due to infighting and stupidity. They've been careless with sensitive information, and it now appears as if pretty much everyone had access to Ferrari data, and, not only that, but they used it, and intended to use it again!

They are a laughing stock. Its time for some heads to roll there.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"Even when McLaren admits that they were wrong, they are not wrong?"

Indeed. Despite publicly proven that earlier statements from Mclaren at previous hearings were wrong, it still must be someone else who made a mistake

If any heads should roll, it should be that of Mike, Pedro and the other Senior Engineer (whose statements were just packs of lies). They brought Mclaren's name down the dirt, and i think for that they will be fortunate if they even keep their job.

That said, Ferrari has also issued a statement accepting the apology and let this issue pass from the WMSC. The legal actions against Nigel and Mike are still ongoing. Quite a move from a team who supposedly has something to hide... they must be eager to let Nigel tell his "story"!

[climb]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Even when McLaren admits that they were wrong, they are not wrong?

I, for one (maybe the only one) am disappointed with McLaren. They are a team in complete disarray. They had a WDC in their grasp and let it slip away due to infighting and stupidity. They've been careless with sensitive information, and it now appears as if pretty much everyone had access to Ferrari data, and, not only that, but they used it, and intended to use it again!

They are a laughing stock. Its time for some heads to roll there.

Ditto Inigo.

Not a good time for Macs idealistic fans

[brands]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

and it now appears as if pretty much everyone had access to Ferrari data, and, not only that, but they used it, and intended to use it again!

That is the big problem with this whole issue....Coulghan, DLR, Alonso and the other Senior Engineer do not equate to 1400 people.

If any people within McLaren knowingly lied in their witness statements, given in person or in writing to the WMSC hearings, then McLaren should sack them and take legal action against them and four listed above, to recover some of the $100 million fine.

Was this apology required, it seems so after reading the FIA report....but the wording of it has Max's fingerprints all over it

[brands]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

The legal actions against Nigel and Mike are still ongoing. Quite a move from a team who supposedly has something to hide... they must be eager to let Nigel tell his "story"!

As to the legal actions against Nigel and Mike being ongoing....how can we tell when it's already taken months and we've yet to see any charges or arrests let alone a trial.

Given what was found at Coughlan's house plus his sworn statement given the following day, what more evidence was required to charge Stepney back in July ?

[NO1SPECIAL]

Inigo you've hit the nail on the head. Visit other forums and you'll find the tide of opinion is well and truly of the belief that, yep, McLaren have been naughty.

The following gem comes from a poster called "Gareth" on the Atlas forum, and sums it all up very nicely.


...The letter is effectively saying:

"okay, so when we told you at the first hearing that only Coughlan had information, we were wrong. And yes, we didn't tell you that, you had to find out from elsewhere. And yes, when we then told you at the second hearing that only Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso had information, we were wrong. And yes, we didn't tell you that, you had to find out from elsewhere. But this time, when we tell you that what you have found out is the absolute full extent of it, we're telling you the truth. Yes, we know we claimed that the last two times but this time it's true.

Look, you can tell it's true because rather than arguing with you we're actually apologising this time. Publically even. And we've offered to limit ourselves in the areas you've discovered we're dodgy. And we've been punished lots already. And it would be bad for Formula 1 if you kept uncovering the fact that this goes further than we admit over and over again. So please stop investigating and draw a line under it because this time it really is as bad as it gets we promise. Oh and sorry again."

[Gt_R]

Good points noted there. The underline is that it took alot of effort from outside parties, be it the photocopying shop, Ferrari's investigations, FIA's "witch-hunt" to uncover all these evidence. We've heard too many "statements" from Mclaren earlier, of denials, of claiming innocence, which time and again proved untrue, and that is damaging for the team's reputation.

Another point that should be raised is how many people still insist Max is doing it as a personal agenda as an excuse for this sorry incident. If that was his intent, he has sufficient ammunition from FIA's technical department to give Mclaren a second round of whipping, why not just finish the job he allegedly started?

The thing is, both Mclaren and FIA knows that this solution is best. FIA was under a lot of heat for the investigations, but thus far, it has proved necessary, although leaving some bitter taste. FIA knows too that it won't do it's reputation, nor F1, much good to continue in a public domain this investigation. Mclaren too realise that it is hurting their credibility to withhold information or deny their guilt, and that to just admit to the seriousness of the case will help all parties achieve closure earlier.

I'm disappointed that even management levels were aware of the leak, yet participate in it rather than put a stop. But then again, it's only human to make mistakes.

[clioracer]

Ah yes, the effort the photocopying shop and Ferrari`s investigations....if someone wanted to steal information in the form of a book or technical information from Ferrari would that person simply put it in a bag and deliver it to his pal / new colleague at Honda / whatever ? or would he disguise it as something else? maybe photocopy it one quite evening in any other european country? i know the people we are talking about are not exactly intelligent but they are not.... well for instance, dustbin men are they.
Except Coughlan and Stepney are intelligent are they not so why the big mistake?

I don`t think Max could have done more, there is acceptability to quantify, not just to teams but to lawyers too. there have been many other cases when teams have done wrong and not suffered any penalty simply because the people who challenged the team have been incorrect in their approach and or simply incorrect in the way they went about their job of scrutineering or their interpretation of the rules etc
No one wants McLaren banned really, after all then there would be less viewers, i wonder if that`s why Bernie didn`t want to ban the team. Much more importantly what would McLaren do with the 1200 + employees? simply carry on for a year testing and developing? no, that was never an option.
After the initial scandal the biggest news was it seemed to me the $100m fine, that certainly made a splash in the press, thus causing McLaren LOTS of bad press. Funny how we didn`t hear anything like as similar from the press when Toyota were involved in a not too dissimilar thing in the summer don't you think?
Why was the initial figure in $ ? do the FIA always quote fines in $. It sounds much more dramatic than £50m i think.
Credibility, well yes McLaren are short of that at the moment but then that would be the aim wouldn`t it?

Oh and with Bernie and Jean Todt voting in favor of Renault not getting a fine in the McLaren v Renault case that also makes the McLaren v Ferrari case look even worse, can you think of one reason Bernie or Jean Todt should be there?
Karma ?
Law of Cause, Consequence and Effect.
Maybe we shall see.

[deeks6]

If nothing else, it highlights how loyal and committed the McLaren devotees are - even when the team finally admit they lied and cheated, the fans still refuse to accept it. Starting to draw a very long bow now ...

[Knowlesy]

The heavy irony of that comment has been noted.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The heavy irony of that comment has been noted.

I hope you did the same with the implicit truth...

[Adam43]

It is a shame that you can't say anything without your opinion being dismissed as born from blind fandom. Although when that happens it can often notify others of blindness.

Anyway, on topic: Am I right in thinking there is now no four week ban after the McLaren letter, FIA acceptance, and further gracious acceptance from Ferrari?

[henk4]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

It is a shame that you can't say anything without your opinion being dismissed as born from blind fandom. Although when that happens it can often notify others of blindness.

Quote Knowlesly: "I SEE no reason for an apology".....what more crass example of blindness do you want?

[Adam43]

There are at least a couple of reasons why someone might say that. 1. they are blind. 2. they have considered it and that is the conclusion the come to. It seems to me that you see what is written, don't like it, so draw a conclusion that assumes the worse in someone. However one thing that this whole affair has proven is that people like to think bad of others and like to write bad things about others.

Anyway, on topic: Am I right in thinking there is now no four week wait after the McLaren letter, FIA acceptance, and further acceptance from Ferrari?

[Kempi]

As to the legal actions against Nigel and Mike being ongoing....how can we tell when it's already taken months and we've yet to see any charges or arrests let alone a trial.

It took ~10 years for Italian courts to finally finish the Senna trial. Italian courts work very slowly, you won't get any quick hearings, trials and so on any time soon. Doesn't mean it isn't going on, though.

[brands]

Originally Posted by Kempi

It took ~10 years for Italian courts to finally finish the Senna trial. Italian courts work very slowly, you won't get any quick hearings, trials and so on any time soon. Doesn't mean it isn't going on, though.

So McLaren can expect an unannounced visit from the local plod at during qualifying at Monza for the next few years then

If the Italian legal system is that much of a joke then why haven't Ferrari acted against Coughlan as that is in the English civil courts....no police or prosecution agencies involved there. Seeing as the English courts acted within minutes back in July, I see no good reason why writs haven't been served on the Coughlans for 5 months.

[phoenix]

It seems that a great deal of time and effort has gone into the FIA investigation of the 2008 McLaren car - judging by the amount of data that was downloaded, the interviews with staff and the examining of PCs.

This investigation has taken at least a couple of months and who knows how many people were invloved and how many man-hours that represents.

Nothing wrong with that if all similar events are dealt with in a consistent manner.......

However, Charlie Whiting was able to investigate and conclude in a much shorter space of time that the 2007 Renaults did not contain one iota of McLaren information within their design.

How could his examination of Renault have been as thorough as that of the McLaren car in the time available? I find that very hard to understand.

To me a witch hunt is when an extraordinay amount of time, effort, force, manipulation of witnesses, offers of reduced suffering for admitting guilt, and much 'jumping to conclusions' are used to arrive at the result the investigator wants.

If the witch hunter wants to avoid finding someone guilty that is pretty easy to achieve - he carries out a perfunctory examination, deliberately not digging too deep for fear of finding condemning evidence and ignoring it and not presenting such evidence it even if he does stumble across it.

In English law I believe that the Judging of a case is done by impartial persons, rather than the investigating and prosecuting part of the process which can be partial, in order to avoid mis-carriages of justice - such as bent coppers framing someone for a crime on the one hand, or offering little or no evidence on the other to get someone 'off' on the other.

[Inigo Montoya]

What are the motives behind such a witch hunt? To hurt the second most popular team in F1 history?

I don't buy it. What has happened here is the FIA has lost its patience with McLaren, who have always insisted on "full cooperation", yet continue to withhold information.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by henk4

Quote Knowlesly: "I SEE no reason for an apology".....what more crass example of blindness do you want?

Well, not really.

I have not said that McLaren have done everything right. But, similarly, I look at everything that has happened with this (I include the Renault case also) and I simply do not understand why this is happening.

I reiterate, I see no reason for the apology. It seems very bizarre.

OMG, further evidence has been found. What a surprise, I fully expected this to all come out in one go. It is a big company and I can well imagine that there is perhaps even more little things to come out yet. **** happens.

As I say, the only people who should be held accountable are the two rogue employees. That is simply how I see it. Anything else is simply an unfortunate consequence.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

As I say, the only people who should be held accountable are the two rogue employees. That is simply how I see it. Anything else is simply an unfortunate consequence.

I have to disagree. Are you telling me that had Mclaren copied the entire Ferrari car it would just be an unfortunate consequence. "OH no it isn't Mclaren's fault that some rogue employee gave us the data, we are within our rights to use it".

[Knowlesy]

I find it unlikely a team that has built successful grand prix cars for decades would copy an entire rivals car.

"Shall we build a quicker car or build one the same?"

[Inigo Montoya]

No, only the parts that they deem useful.