|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
30 Jun 2024, 15:07 (Ref:4217357) | #26 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,961
|
Quote:
Surely this is now different to saying that drivers on public roads should be penalised for driving on side-walks (pavements in the UK). We have raised curbs that mark the limits of the roadway in the same way that racing tracks have designated markings that mark the extremes of the racing area. If drivers go over those places, then they should expect a penalty; likewise, if they force another driver to exceed those areas, then they should also expect to receive a penalty. |
|||
|
30 Jun 2024, 15:16 (Ref:4217361) | #27 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,987
|
Problematic to compare things to the rules of public roads and also I’m not against penalties.
Just saying that gravel and track limits can at times create extreme or disproportionate penalties. Agree to disagree but there is not a one stop solution to every scenario imo and that sporting values do need to be balanced with entertainment. |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
30 Jun 2024, 18:50 (Ref:4217395) | #28 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,754
|
What this weekends events have shown is that for the most part having gravel there is a deterrent and that the cars stayed mostly on course.
My issue is that a track is defined as between the white lines, so why does the gravel have to be a full cars width away from the outer edge of the white line. Put it less than a cars width away, make the kerbs less than a cars width. Force them to keep 2 wheels well within limits rather than counting millimetres to see if a cars inside tyres stayed on the line. |
||
|
30 Jun 2024, 19:11 (Ref:4217396) | #29 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
How are you planning to define, and then police, "well within limits?"
|
|
|
30 Jun 2024, 19:16 (Ref:4217398) | #30 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,171
|
I initially thought that well within was a problem here, but then I re-read as I assumed I’d probably not taken the time to understand what was being meant.
ScotsBrutesFan is saying that if the kerbs are narrow then the (inner) 2 wheels would be well within those limits. Hence no need for police, or define. The driver will be choosing not to go any further because it would be bad for them. He can confirm if I’ve read that right. |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
30 Jun 2024, 19:27 (Ref:4217400) | #31 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
So, they could be within legal track limits and in the gravel at the same time? That’s really not going to work!
|
|
|
30 Jun 2024, 19:28 (Ref:4217401) | #32 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,171
|
|
||
__________________
Brum brum |
30 Jun 2024, 19:48 (Ref:4217402) | #33 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,754
|
Quote:
If the driver want's to push to the very edge of the track remember as I said in my first post the track is defined as WITHIN the white lines. If a driver wants to run on the white lines with their inside tyres then the outer tyres will be on the gravel. |
|||
|
30 Jun 2024, 19:53 (Ref:4217404) | #34 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
I understand the good motives but that would be total mayhem, and completely unworkable anyway.
|
|
|
30 Jun 2024, 20:09 (Ref:4217409) | #35 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,812
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
30 Jun 2024, 20:19 (Ref:4217411) | #36 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
Many reasons that I think are fairly obvious. Let’s start with the legal and indemnity implications for the FIA on safety if a car can be defined routinely as being on the track in regulation and in a gravel trap simultaneously..
|
|
|
30 Jun 2024, 20:37 (Ref:4217414) | #37 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,754
|
That argument doesn't stand up as there are circuits where cars bounce off the Armco but yet "be defined routinely as being on the track in regulation"
|
||
|
30 Jun 2024, 20:44 (Ref:4217415) | #38 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,961
|
Quote:
Or just go back to the ways of the 50s/60s/70s where you had a white line with grass immediately beyond. However, it was usually worn out and would commonly be rutted, meaning that drivers would do all they could to not get on to it as the results could be really unpredictable. Further more, you also never had curbing that is on a slope which is just designed to help the drivers go around corners/bends quicker than if they did not exist. So why not take them away, as well? Or go back to the banking of tracks like Brooklands, because if you went beyond the track limits there you went out in to no-man's-land! |
|||
|
30 Jun 2024, 21:39 (Ref:4217421) | #39 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,686
|
Quote:
Worked really well this weekend, I expect that they'll do a review but it seems on first blush like they've come up with a good solution. |
|||
__________________
“We’re far from having too much horsepower…[m]y definition of too much horsepower is when all four wheels are spinning in every gear.” ― Mark Donohue |
1 Jul 2024, 06:07 (Ref:4217452) | #40 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,561
|
Quote:
If I read SBF's post correctly - it is just being suggested that the kerb is made less than a car's width more consistently. |
|||
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
1 Jul 2024, 07:18 (Ref:4217464) | #41 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
||
|
1 Jul 2024, 09:14 (Ref:4217476) | #42 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,655
|
I think that it worked well. Apart from Piastri of course who felt hard done by. Certainly it was an marked improvement on last years debacle.
|
||
__________________
It's just my opinion. |
1 Jul 2024, 12:46 (Ref:4217489) | #43 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,170
|
Quote:
Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
1 Jul 2024, 13:43 (Ref:4217500) | #44 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,858
|
I think the gravel traps at that circuit were a success. Compare the number of violations this year to last year. Last year was farcical.
Oscar may feel hard done by but was over the limit if only fractionally. |
||
|
1 Jul 2024, 14:07 (Ref:4217503) | #45 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,812
|
Having watched the race and now looking at those photos, it doesn't look like total mayhem, or completely unworkable.
|
||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
1 Jul 2024, 14:10 (Ref:4217504) | #46 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,767
|
It’s good to have more gravel in places, but we still have the problem of the corner where Oscar got pinged harshly. And the acres of tarmac in turn 3
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
1 Jul 2024, 16:02 (Ref:4217513) | #47 | ||||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,017
|
Quote:
FIA and Red Bull Racing are aware of this, the kerbs already existed and there wasn't time to modify them. Quote:
Quote:
The kerb width from the white line to the gravel was less than 2m, if Oscar had stayed with his tyre entirely on the kerb he would not have been pinged. Instead Oscar had about a third of his rear tyre on the gravel -- fortunately for him the level of the gravel was below the level of the kerb (perhaps due to other drivers messing up the gravel previously). |
||||
|
2 Jul 2024, 10:50 (Ref:4217572) | #48 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,990
|
Quote:
After watching corners 9 and 10 during Austrian qualifying, the drivers' ability to run across the kerb to the very edge of the gravel was highly impressive. It demonstrates that wide kerbs are not a necessity for safety and are just an encouragement to go beyond the track. The only downside to placing gravel right up to the edge of the track is that it will get scattered onto the track when a car runs slightly wide. So I think a 1 metre gap between track and gravel is a sensible compromise. Then any driver who is marginally "over track limits" by the current definition will have half his car in the gravel and will lose a lot of time. Track limits penalties then become unnecessary. Large gravel traps do have the potential to cause car to beach which is a problem for the entertainment value of a race even if I don't have much sympathy for a driver who gets himself in that position. So I would be quite happy have fairly narrow gravel traps and tarmac run-off beyond. The system of having to rejoin the track at a certain place (already used at some corners) is a good one and could be further developed to ensure that any off-track excursion suffers a substantial penalty (more than they were getting at the Wall of Champions chicane in Canada). |
|||
__________________
The older I get, the faster I was. |
2 Jul 2024, 12:33 (Ref:4217582) | #49 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
Quote:
Anyway I accepted above that maybe being “on track” and in the gravel simultaneously could be possible, and might well work. |
||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
The COAT - Round One - Red Bull RB8 vs Red Bull RB9 | crmalcolm | Predictions Contest & Fun | 2 | 10 May 2021 14:33 |
wsr red bull ring | bella | National & International Single Seaters | 32 | 5 Sep 2013 15:55 |
FRC 2013 - ELMS Round 3: Red Bull Ring | joeb | Predictions Competitions | 14 | 22 Jul 2013 17:42 |
Anyone ever been to the A1 Ring (now Red Bull Ring)? | Down F0rce | Trackside | 9 | 22 Nov 2012 12:43 |
Red Bull Ring | ECW Dan Selby | My Track Designs | 3 | 27 Oct 2010 06:42 |