[Race] Mexico Grand Prix

[Articus]

Nico vs Carlos Round 2

[Adam43]

FWIW Nico has slightly edged it in practice. Proper stuff starts tomorrow.

[Purist]

No, it really doesn't help. At Indy, the guy who was ahead going in basically dictated, unless the guy overtaking can stick the move, or just about, before the braking zone. Otherwise, the guy who was ahead before just makes it clear he'll run the overtaking car over the inside curb, or off the outside of the track. Heck, on Lap 1 of one of those Indy GPs, I saw them going into that final complex, bypassing Oval Turn 1, four-wide, and not a single position changed. To get around that angular apex, the guys further to the inside were put on too tight/acute a line to make a move. They have the same problem with the "designed" overtaking zones for the IndyCar layout at Sears Point, and the actual racing there is lousy.

Just because the pass is basically made with the closing rate under braking, that doesn't mean that the cars are totally clear of one another near or even at the apex, so if it's one-line, that becomes a real problem.

And remember, 1 mph of top speed is worth several times 1 mph less in apex speed in terms of kinetic energy, and therefore in terms of how much energy has to be taken off in braking.

Is it a myth because side-by-side through turns has always been a myth, or because so many corners on "modern" circuits are designed such that it makes such things a myth? I'm not terribly interested in perpetuating circular, self-fulfilling prophecies. I AM interested in making the racing better.

And yeah, the turns at Bahrain you mentioned earlier are exactly the type I'm talking about the sport NEEDING, smooth-profile, high-speed, long-duration corners. The opening complex at Shanghai, as well as Turns 7 and 8, are also good examples for a "modern" circuit. And smooth-profile, long-duration corners, even slower ones, are still decidedly better for the racing than those ultra-tight, acute/angular turns.

[Purist]

Even when the overtake occurs in the braking zone, that's just the end of the process. I've seen plenty passes made by slipstreaming, powering by, and/or getting a better exit out of the previous corner. And if a pass occurs in braking, it's one or more of these factors that facilitated the driver getting close enough to have a dive on the brakes.

Yes, that YouTube video from '91 was very nice.

Do you regard Turn 2 at Austin as a "real corner", or merely a continuation of the acceleration zone, so basically a straight? I'm just curious how you classify it, and thus, how you might classify something like Turns 2-4 at Watkins Glen.

And with your example of Ricciardo vs. Bottas on Lap 2 at Austin, it's hard to tell, but I think the Red Bull may have just barely cut the inside of Turn 3 there. Turns 3-5 certainly aren't as bad as that apex that Max cut on the last lap, but I might like to see just a touch of easing with those as well.

And be careful about that earlier proposal for dumpng F1 altogether; with the prevalence of these "modern" circuits, the track limits crap, and the halo stuff, I've already honestly been tempted from time to time to drop following F1 as much as I currently do at the end of this season.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Purist

I've already honestly been tempted from time to time to drop following F1 as much as I currently do at the end of this season.

Tried MotoGP? Epic racing, all classes!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Now here is cool side by side into that corner back when real men were real men.
https://youtu.be/FXz3FVm0Ans

Not the most famous move at Mexico (that is Nige at the corner before), but a good one into that corner.

The problem with all the circuits is that they don't have a sequence of same handed corners (say all right handed) where you can position a car on the first corner to overtake on the second. Opposite handed corners simply allow the leading car to close down the overtaking car on the switchback to the next corner. Plus you have to go transition all all the dirty air coming off the car in front.

S-bends have awful consequences to overtaking.

[Purist]

Actually, of the new ones, you have Turns 12 and 13 at Bahrain, plus Turns 1 and 2 at Shanghai.

Spa, Suzuka, and Interlagos all have those "same-handed corners". In addition, the Senna S at Interlagos and Les Combes at Spa dispel your assertion about those types of sequences necessarily being bad for overtaking. If you count Turns 7 and 8 at Shanghai as esse bends, then there's another example. There are also Turns 1-3 at Singapore.

MotoGP and WSBK suffer from the same issue, in the "modern" circuits department, as F1, unfortunately. Thankfully, they each do have some classics on their slates.

Speaking of classics, I'm having a bit of a laugh picturing current F1 cars trying to get around the old Horquilla hairpin on the original, 5.0-km layout at Mexico City.

[rpolinski]

2nd new engine of the weekend for Vandorne putting him starting back on the Texas grid. Sky boys talking about the mythical Version 4 Honda engine that has apparently blown up on the dyno -at least they now finally have some correlation between their dyno data and on-track .

Maybe they should put it in the back of an MP4-18

[Armco Bender]

Maybe they should put it in the back of an MP4-18

McLaren would do better dragging a couple of M 23's out of their museum and running them.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

The problem with all the circuits is that they don't have a sequence of same handed corners (say all right handed) where you can position a car on the first corner to overtake on the second. Opposite handed corners simply allow the leading car to close down the overtaking car on the switchback to the next corner. Plus you have to go transition all all the dirty air coming off the car in front.

S-bends have awful consequences to overtaking.

That can be quite hard to achieve as geometry gets in the way.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

McLaren would do better dragging a couple of M 23's out of their museum and running them.

or what about the MP4-4 that had a decent Honda V6 in the back of it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Maybe Lulu will wrap it up on Sunday. Looking forward to qualifying.

[S griffin]

McLaren yet again hampered by these ridiculous grid penalties. Fans are no doubt bored of always hearing about grid penalties and track limits

Vettel's fire extinguisher went off, is there anything that can't go wrong for Ferrari these days?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Maybe Lulu will wrap it up on Sunday. Looking forward to qualifying.

Hopefully. He needs fifth or better. He's only failed to do that once this year. Only this simple statistic it's 1/17 that he fails to do that this year and this assumes Vettel wins.

Vettel has only won 4 times. Vettel can keep it alive with a second, but Lewis would clinch it with ninth. In every race this year he has finished higher than ninth, the worst was seventh in Monaco.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by S griffin

McLaren yet again hampered by these ridiculous grid penalties. Fans are no doubt bored of always hearing about grid penalties and track limits

Fans are bored of fans being bored of it.

Vettel's fire extinguisher went off, is there anything that can't go wrong for Ferrari these days?

A lose screw apparently!

[Articus]

Carlos Sainz looking good in the Renault. I'm sure he wants to take each race 1 by 1 and beat Hulkenburg in these last 3. With a strong 2018, Sainz could end up at Red Bull, Ferrari, or Mercedes when the dust settles.

[S griffin]

Yes Sainz has just got on and done it since Max got promoted and certainly I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in one of those top three teams in the not too distant future

[Articus]

Max Verstappen just laid down the gauntlet in Q2. 1:16.5!! Half a second the rest of the grid.

[Articus]

Once again, Hulkenberg and Sainz in absolute lockstep with Sainz edging Nico by mere thousanths of a second. They are getting the absolute maximum out of that Renault based on how close the lap times between the two are,

[Articus]

Sebastian Vettel!!! Sublime!!!

but kudos to Max considering the power deficit.

[bjohnsonsmith]

A Ferrari front row, with Vettel on pole. I believe that's his 50th. Lewis is third and all he has to do is stay in the top 5.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Articus

Once again, Hulkenberg and Sainz in absolute lockstep with Sainz edging Nico by mere thousanths of a second. They are getting the absolute maximum out of that Renault based on how close the lap times between the two are,

what a relief for renault to finally have two competitive cars. sainz is making palmer look ordinary, and rather a lot of people seem to think sainz isn't very good in the first place.

[Purist]

Looking at the times, it doesn't seem like Bottas wants to make it easy for Hamilton, either. Maybe those Ricciardo rumors have lit a fire under the Finn.

Really, I'm not counting on it being an "easy" top five for Hamilton to get. Perez will want to beat Ocon at home. Ricciardo isn't going to just lie down back there on the grid. The Williams and Force Indias, if history is any indication, are quick on the straights. I'm sure Kimi knows his job is to give the Mercs hell. And Lewis has to know that if he gets into it with Max, and the Dutchman is being adamant, he'd do well to let the Red Bull go. (No sense in taking himself out and letting Vettel close 25 points, potentially.)

[cds_uk]

Originally Posted by Articus

Once again, Hulkenberg and Sainz in absolute lockstep with Sainz edging Nico by mere thousanths of a second. They are getting the absolute maximum out of that Renault based on how close the lap times between the two are,

3/10ths when it mattered though, still a good effort from Sainz never the less.

[GTRMagic]

Mr Hartley was looking good too til his Remault went BANG..
Must be practicing for next year