Not a Spectator Sport

[justracing]

I attend a great deal of "clubbiie" race meetings particularly at Brands but also occasionally other circuits around the UK, time and money permitting and for years it's amazed me that the Masters meeting at BH at the end of May is so poorly supported. That meeting and the HSCC Superprix in July are real highlights for me but it seems that the general public are either not interested or ill informed as to the breadth and quality of cars competing at these events. Selfishly I hope it stays that way because perversely the promotional costs in attracting the masses will always be carried by the punter and whilst I do still attend other major events including the Revival most years, the cost of spectating at some of these so called prestigious meetings is now beyond me. £185 for a year's season pass at BH represents good value to me compared with £80 for one day at the Goodwood members meeting, I for one will not be going but then again I don't fit in too well with the Hooray Henrys either. I know my place

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by brands

I am a paying spectator, I know my place.

Do you look up to, or down on us?

[356sc]

...interesting that most are violently agreeing, but very few suggestions of what (if anything) can be done to change this...

From what I can can see no-one is actually interested in taking a punt on promoting events as ultimately, as Mr Falce eloquently pointed out, the financial food chain ensures the circuit owner and the organiser get their required money/profit, paid by the entrants....and the risk/reward of investing money to get paying punters through the gate does not stack up. Speaking to Vanessa (GTSCC) the margins for the organisers are tight enough without adding to their expenditure.

What can be done to change it?

Rather depressingly I am not sure anything can.

Unless the circuit owners change the way in which they get their money (partial (smaller)contribution by the organiser and balance by gate receipts) this will not change.....and lets be honest why would they?

Any anyway, even if "someone" pumped money into advertising a particular event are there enough petrol heads out there would would be prepared to pay even a small gate fee to come and watch?

Set aside the likes of Goodwood, Le Mans Classic where attending is "fashionable" rather than anything to do with the cars, why would folks want to watch us?

You just have to turn the telly on to see that the majority people want crash bang wallop entertainment....and I am sure as hell that the racers posting on here are not prepared to risk their historic pride and joy just to amuse onlookers!

[simon drabble]

frankly outside of Goodwood and possibly the Classic I would not pay to watch club racing so not sure why others would..

I grew up next to Silverstone and as a boy went regularly during school holidays but those where different times and you were likely to get "names" even at club meetings.

[justracing]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

frankly outside of Goodwood and possibly the Classic I would not pay to watch club racing so not sure why others would

Clearly I am in a minority but simpleton as I am I enjoy the purist nature of club racing, the ability to to talk with competitors in the paddock, take an interest in their car preparation and to observe their varying talents on circuit whether it be tin tops or open wheel categories, historic, classic or contemporary.
I have never been in the position to race myself but I have a passion for motorsports and attend all manner of race meetings as an ardent enthusiast, I see nothing wrong with that but then I don't understand the interest in watching 22 guys kicking a ball around!

[zefarelly]

Silverstone, I live near a small airport so I get to hear noise and see flat fields any time for free.

Brands for £15 is a good day out and extremely good value.
Goodwood is good value if you make full use of the day/weekend, problem is theres too much to do, which doesn't necessarily equate to those who expect it all in an hour and a half ?

[justracing]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Silverstone, I live near a small airport so I get to hear noise and see flat fields any time for free.

Agreed wholeheartedly, in my opinion the worst spectator circuit in the uk and I know them all, except Croft which for some strange reason has always alluded me although I will rectify this in the coming few months, it's a long trek from the Sussex coast!

[simon drabble]

I lived until very recently 2 miles from Thruxton and went about 1-2 times a year. Club racing is not that exciting I am afraid to say and the reason Goodwood and The Classic are wrth going to as a spectator is that there are sufficient number of side shows to make it worthwhile.
I would prefer to spend £100 going to the Classic or Goodwood than £15 to watch one make series at Brands.
There is no right or wrong on this debate merely preference ..

[chunder]

With regard to promotion,.

There are differnet organisations trying things, the Time Attack crew for instance are trying to get a new type of event going, and it having a modicum of success.

In their favour is a fan friendly approach. I went to Snetterton a few years back and because they closed the circuit for an hour, fans were able to get into the pitlane, sees hte cars that were presented for teh fans, talk to drivers.

I know you can see the smae thing in any paddock, but part of it is presentation.

The organisers are trying to entice the histiric and classic guys along, there was a thread somewhere, but it died, probably because most racers of those type of cars wouldnt be sene dead there. Suffuce to say the crowd at Brands last years was very decent, 20 quid a pop too so not clubbie really.

There are poeple trying, but it takes two to tango and the huffy attitude commented on here once or twice is a barrier

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

......
I would prefer to spend £100 going to the Classic or Goodwood than £15 to watch one make series at Brands.
There is no right or wrong on this debate merely preference ..

But most would agree with you.... its common sense ....there is a lot to do at Goodwood, a lot to see as well. The classic from 2006 when I was there till now has grown beyond belief , big events are big events period and true of every sport. Wembley will be filled this weekend because its Spurs Vs Chelsea....it wouldnt be if it were Braintree Vs Chelmsford FC.

BTCC is supported because people want to see people drive terribly with bad driving standards and lots of crashes..and as has already been said....if someone has invested a great deal of time and effort in restoring a classic car to race it, the last thing they want to have is a BTCC antics move on their pride and joy.

[Paul D]

[QUOTE=Normal Bloke;3509370]Well I'll have a stab at that.......it's because, like it or not (and I don't), the UK is rock 'n' rolling and NZ and Australia aren't. QUOTE]

The UK may well be, as you say 'rock 'n' rolling' - but unfortunately, only for the bankers, lawyers, politicians, etc. For the rest of us normal people, in general, there ain't anything fantastic happening to our finances here in the UK.

And that's rather exactly the point I'm making: club racing is mainly populated by us normal folks, most of us aren't the 'super rich' (we wouldn't be club racing if we were) and competing at events like the Classic or Goodwood, yet we're still expected to pay a much higher price for our racing than our counterparts in other parts of the world.

[chunder]

Good point Paul D

And one directly affecting hisitroc racing, the higer echelons of which are approaching insanity in terms of costs.

While you can race older machinery cheaply, in comparison with other types of racing like speed events, the cots are astronomic, hence why some speed events are gaining popularity withotu really doing much to recruit drivers.

Club racing is preposterously expensive if you are starting out, I looked into it a few years ago and the gear alone was going to cost upwards of a grand, then I have to go on some stupid course where som has been racing driver is going to tell me what to do while a firm makes an ordinate profit out of nothing, then you look at everything else.

Club racing at any level needs a shake up, and I for one applaud any body who is prepared to batter down the hatches the the MSA and take them on

[bauble]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I lived until very recently 2 miles from Thruxton and went about 1-2 times a year. Club racing is not that exciting I am afraid to say and the reason Goodwood and The Classic are wrth going to as a spectator is that there are sufficient number of side shows to make it worthwhile.
I would prefer to spend £100 going to the Classic or Goodwood than £15 to watch one make series at Brands.
There is no right or wrong on this debate merely preference ..

Simon, purely out of interest do you think that it because you race yourself, that watching someone else do it less attractive?

We who do not (probably never have) enjoy seeing others, but I know that some drivers are only interested in competing themselves. From your post you do spectate on occasion so I just wondered what motivated you.

Kind regards,

Bauble.

[midgetman]

I suspect Simon's answer would be the same as mine. Watching cars doesn't give the same buzz as having a living breathing monster beneath you (figuratively speaking of course!). I stopped spectating years ago, and don't miss it. I suppose I'm luckier than most in that my work takes me to lots of racing circuits both selling and "hands on" but that doesn't mean I prefer working to the chance to race!

I am hearing these conversations all across the board from race drivers and so many lay the blame at the feet of the MSA and the regulations they are bringing on. They just cannot afford the cost of compliance and so are turning their backs on the sport if they even get as far as taking it up in the first place.

When I did my first hillclimb I had a motorbike helmet and that was it. If MiniMM wants a go in my car instead of his kart it's going to cost him (me) £500 in kit and he_(I) just don't call that good value for driving an old MGZS up a hill for a total of 2 minutes at a speed slower than he drove it to the meeting!

I appreciate the need for safety equipment, God knows I earn a modest living from it, but there comes a point when potential entrants say "no" and walk away, and that impacts my earnings even more!

[simon drabble]

Bauble to answer your question I will watch races at the Classic and Revival as you are often seeing not only the best cars but the best drivers.

Other than that I am a sucker for Truck Racing and British GT! Having said that I was happy to go to Thruxton but never went further afield....

When I was a boy my father lived in Greens Norton which is not far from Silverstone and the owner of the Saracen's Head in Towcester was a family friend. Drivers staying there would always give him tickets so we would get them from him and go to Silverstone! It was late 60's - mid 70's and I seem to recall it was all a lot more exciting than now - probably just because I was a young lad in awe!

[terence]

Fromsome of the comments on here it sounds like some of you need to drive a REAL circuit.

[Derwent Motorsp]

We are the only circus where the clowns pay to perform.
I collect programmes for Scottish and north of England events pre 1985 and event quite modest club meetings has good sponsrs, such as the Daily Mirror sponsoring events st Rufforth thus getting the sport publicity to the man in the street.
One thing that puts me off many race meetings is the number of one make races. The BTCC Clios are dire and not many of them for example.
I have been fortunate to compete in most forms of motorsport for over 40 years and in recent years do a little bit of racing. This year I need a new helmet despite mine being "as new". I also needed a new engine after a blow up last year so I really wonder whether the time has come to call it a day?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Cookie2000

What stopped me spectating regularly was when MSV started charging adult admission for 13 year olds!

That's a good point - at the moment I can pop along to Brands with my son in tow and as he's free it's a good value day out (and I score points with the missus for taking the boy with me - father/son quality time). Once I have to pay for him I'll be going half as often (or leaving him at home and racking up negative points with the missus - abandoning child).

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by terence

Fromsome of the comments on here it sounds like some of you need to drive a REAL circuit.

Terry not just drive it but race on it, we have done and we would again - if the equally inept German authorities / administrators / organisers hadn't done a good job of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, and what little racing still happens seems to be all HTP 'up yer own arse' stuff...

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence

Fromsome of the comments on here it sounds like some of you need to drive a REAL circuit.

If you're talking about that one near you, I doubt my back would last 2 laps and god forbid the 750club organised a race there as with 13 minutes plus a lap I'd just about make the first lap.

[DaveGT6]

I wouldn't pay to watch me racing so why would I expect anyone else to? The village sports field is next to my house. In the summer it's nice to watch the local cricket team play. In the winter there's lots of football. Expecting people to pay to watch this is laughable. It is the same with club racing. Why should we expect anyone to pay to see a lot of amateurs running around in circles?

There are the big events that attract the public but as has been said before they offer a lot of side show attractions to keep people entertained.

As a racer I do attend some club race meetings as a spectator but then I'm a real enthusiast. Even I sometimes find these less than entertaining. Poor on track visibility as the grand stands are closed and there are no big screens. Inadequate PA systems so you don't know what is going on. Bars closed due to lack of demand. It's less than a compelling offering.

[brands]

I go to and enjoy lots of motorsport as a spectator, maybe having a camera helps ?
Mixing circuit racing with hillclimbing, the odd rally and sprint plus a few modern meetings means I have a good variety each season.

For historic racing several of the Masters events, Donington and Brands for example, are good, HSCC has the Gold Cup and Wolds Trophy while AMOC is currently having a revival.
VSCC, CSCC Special saloons and Fiscar are a welcome sight on track and in the paddock.

There are a few little gems of meetings around the country and of course the best kept secret is still the International Trophy weekend.

I can take the Friday at the Revival but the weekend is too much of a social set gathering for me. Much better I watch the live streaming.

The Classic has become my favourite meeting of the year, in no small part because of the great access in the garages and paddocks. There is also lots of other attractions if the on track action wanes. With a mate who has access to a car club discount the early bird three day ticket is £49, a bargain.

Poor PA and commentary is an issue at some events but having access to TSL via a smart phone makes life easier.

I have never raced but I thank all of you that do for providing me with a regular motorsport fix.

[gt917]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

It is the same with club racing. Why should we expect anyone to pay to see a lot of amateurs running around in circles?

An awful lot of those so called amateurs put on fuller grids and more exciting racing than some of the "professional" events.

[Mike Harte]

In the last 10 years or so, I have been to one BTCC meeting at Donington as a guest of a sponsor, one clubbie at Mallory as a paying spectator and numerous GPs around the world invariably as a guest of some participant or other. Virtually every one of those meetings were packed, apart from some of those towards the east of the world.

My spectating at meetings these days is done from the comfort of a chair in front of the TV at home or on the computer. My viewing is pretty eclectic, and so I find myself watching varied motorsports from the humble club meetings up to the epics such as the Le Mans 24 Heures. However, I haven't watched a GP for about 3 years, although I do read about the build-ups to each season and infrequently monitor progress over the months.

What I have noticed at the televised clubbies is that, as depicted by the TV cameras' lens, the circuits seem to be almost devoid of spectators, either in the stands or standing on the banks. The same is almost true of the Nascar Nationwide series of races which take place on the Saturdays, although the Cup races on the Sundays may be different but I've yet to see one.

My only comparison is based on my experiences from nearly 50 years ago, from my youth when I used to just spectate or compete. Although we went to a few high profile races back then, like the BOAC 500, most of our time was spent at clubbies and the spectators were packed in, whether it was Brands where there were loads of cars and campers parked on South Bank, people in the grandstand before Paddock Hill Bend or along the banks around the bend and up towards Druids. The same applied to other circuits I visited, and I have a very vivid picture in my mind from Snetterton of a packed uncovered grandstand at the hairpin at the end of the Norwich Straight on my first race there. That was not a figment of my imagination, because at the time I thought that I was going to actually crash into the stand; more luck than judgement, I stopped just short, although facing the wrong way. And my avatar is culled from a photo that shows me there again passing the grandstand opposite the start/finish line, and the whole picture shows a full stand plus people on the bank lining the circuit.

What I am trying to say is that back then, many, many people used to attend club meetings, but I don't think that the reason for that was necessarily because the racing was better or that it was better value for money. A lot of it was because there was very little else to do, especially on a Sunday. No shops were open, pubs were closed from 2 o'clock until 7 p.m. (they only opened at 12 o'clock), and even the cinemas were closed until the evening. Sunday football was a far off dream, so a day's entertainment in the spring/summer/autumn was either a trip to the seaside or going to watch some cars hammering around a circuit. And I know which one appealed to me.

As an ex-competitor, I find it very difficult to say whether it is a spectator sport or not. I have always attended in the company of others who have never participated and they seem to get more enjoyment from the experience than I do; I tend to leave feeling frustrated at not having been able to participate in the action, and knowing that I could have done a better job than some of those that I had just watched (I wish ).

Having said all that, I am going to Croft in July to see the BTCC meeting in the company of one of my sons and the grandchildren. No matter what happens that day, I will thoroughly enjoy myself.

[justracing]

Very good observations Mr. Harte, I have similar memories of well attended race meetings and by the way I probably watched you from that grandstand at the end of the Norwich straight! I was working and living in Norfolk in the 70's and even the clubby bike meetings attracted good spectator numbers but then as you quite rightly say there was damn all else to do back then.
I am still a regular spectator particularly at Brands but then I don't drink, I detest shopping, can't abide football and I've been to the cinema twice in the last 10 years so I guess this leaves me out in the cold, figuratively and very often literally on a Sunday!