Does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal?

[Terrible-Tones]

This question of "forcing" people to do "Flagging" to get an upgrade is one that has reared it's head a number of times. Quite a lot of people give me feedback as I am on the SM Committee. I have had several people report that they will not bother to upgrade from Track to Exp Track (despite being clearly ready to do so) on the basis they simply do not want to do 5 days flagging. This seems such a waste, especially as it is clear that these guys/girls understand flags, and could certainly do it at a push.

I have reported this back to committee several times - but I am unsure if it has fallen on deaf ears.

However, from Trainee to Track you don't have to do any days flagging at all, but you have to have an assessment day for flagging. So it is up to you whether you wish to ge the practise in or not. IMHO this is about the right balance - I believe every marshal out on track should show an understanding of flags.

From Track to Exp Track you have to do a flag assessment and show 5 of your (at least) 15 days are flag days. This is where we run into the issues. All the MSA are asking is that you can prove that you can step up and at least help out if needed in flagging terms. A single day (which could be your assessment day) will show that. IMHO there is no need for 5.

5 days is an odd amount - too many to merely prove competence (ie get the right flag at more or less right time - useful in emergency manning) but no marshal will ever say you can be an expert in 5 days. So it is an "in between" figure and does not reflect the needs in any way.

This may all be arbitary anyway - the system is about to change (see BMMC website under "Grading") and the new guidelines will be published soon. I have no idea what is in them, but hopefully our comments about this, the recent thread re who can sign attendance sigs, and the number of days required for an upgrade, have been taken onboard.

[juliet]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

p.s. the only thing, does it have to be silverstone flaggies only that can tempt you into flagging?

Nope doesnt have to be silverstone marshals or flaggies its just silverstone is just down the road so this time of year i tend to do most of my marshalling there (i dont like camping in the cold!)
maybe i should have worded it flaggies at silverstone! am also at Rockingham for the winter series too

[exflagman]

Agree wholeheartedly that not wanting to flag does not in any way make you a bad marshal, in the same way that me not wanting to be an observer - and spending 25 years trying to avoid the role, made me a bad marshal - tried it, was c**p at it. Didn't mean i didn't do the job if persuaded(forced) to.

I can see why the MSA would want everyone to be capable of doing any job - after all most people on this forum probably think they could do a better job then that lot in the MSA

Unfortunately I believe they have gone about it wrong way as regards the flagging side of things.

The main problem I see is the fact that a trainee has to get a flagging assessment in order to get upgraded from the dreaded novice/trainee tag.
In order to achieve this they have to spend some meetings flagging when they have only just started marshalling and hence they probably feel ill equipped to do what most people percieve as a difficult job.

Some will undoubtedly say that it is up to the experienced flag marshals to overcome this apprehension by giving adequate training, and to some extent I would agree.

I think this brings us to the real heart of the problem and something that maybe was not really anticipated when creating the current upgrading system - its is very difficult to teach flagging to trainee marshals, it was hard enough to do it under the old system when you normally only had to contend with trainee flag marshals, who at least, could be expected to have one or two years experience of being trackside and an understanding of how things operate.

Having had some experience of trying to help trainee flag marshals gain the required experience to achieve the 'blue' upgrade, I can appreciate why some flag marshals may be unhappy to take on extra training duties.

Having been out of the sport during the current system I have no experience of what training the experienced flag marshals are given in how to train the trainees - anyone like to enlighten us?

In another thread Ian Briggs asked 'what it would take to persuade experience people like me back to the sport'. Well, apart from a massive pay rise, I am not sure, maybe some feeling that the upper echelons of the sport had some appreciation of how things operate at ground level.

At the moment the BMMC web site does not give access to the training guidelines document as it is 'awaiting update', but what I can remember of the previous version it did not really seem to give much information of what level of training you are expected to give a trainee during their suggested 5 days 'flagging'.

It would be interesting for people in this situation to enlighten us. Where do you start and how far do you need to take the training

[juliet]

Originally Posted by exflagman

In another thread Ian Briggs asked 'what it would take to persuade experience people like me back to the sport'. Well, apart from a massive pay rise, I am not sure, maybe some feeling that the upper echelons of the sport had some appreciation of how things operate at ground level.

Personally i would expect at least triple pay every day it rains

[Ian Briggs]

Originally Posted by exflagman

In another thread Ian Briggs asked 'what it would take to persuade experience people like me back to the sport'.

Ah, did I? i dont remember, best tidy that up as someone might be miffed at being called me.....



Anyway, back to the main question, does not wanting to flag make you a bad marshal, obviously no, but......

I believe that taking the time to become proficient will make you a BETTER marshal.

What no one seeems to have pointed out is that every time someone steps over the barrier, the preceding Yellow flag is thier only protection, so taking a bit of time to become good at something that is covering your fellow marshals seems a bit obvious

[skeee]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

................... personal favourite being John Baker @ Brands.

Who's he?



Some new bloke?

[NewYankee01]

Originally Posted by exflagman

In another thread Ian Briggs asked 'what it would take to persuade experience people like me back to the sport'. Well, apart from a massive pay rise, I am not sure, maybe some feeling that the upper echelons of the sport had some appreciation of how things operate at ground level.

well for the "upper echelons" who either do have their heads in the clouds or they can do something about it and arent forced to accept "the way it is" it might be possible if a certain person on here (if he thinks its worthwhile) was to send a few emails to some of the right people for one day on post maybe as a bit of fake pr but pr all the same, would that start to tempt you back, or is it a more impossible task?
after all it might be more cost effective given its either that or the recruitment drives

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

Ah, did I? i dont remember, best tidy that up as someone might be miffed at being called me.....

Oops - brain fade, it was Ian Lewis - too many Ians around here

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

What no one seeems to have pointed out is that every time someone steps over the barrier, the preceding Yellow flag is thier only protection, so taking a bit of time to become good at something that is covering your fellow marshals seems a bit obvious

The problem is, for someone to give that cover - at most flag points, they have to have their back to oncoming traffic - if you have a 'trainee' with only a few meetings experience, how do you get them to feel comfortable with being in that situation without frightening the life out of them?

[juliet]

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

So taking a bit of time to become good at something that is covering your fellow marshals seems a bit obvious

This is one of the exact reasons that puts me off, generally when i am doing incident if i do something completly stupid, 90% of the time, it is only my safety that i am putting at risk. however when flagging you have a responcibility to give the drivers the signals needed to keep a whole team safe.
I am happy that i can complete my incident duties safely but i dont think that even if i did 10 days flagging i would be happy (at this level) having that responcibility.

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Ian Briggs

I believe that taking the time to become proficient will make you a BETTER marshal.

Not being funny but just how is being proficient at one specialisation going to make someone better at another. If what you mean is a more rounded marshal then yes I agree but saying that if you want to be an all rounder shouldn't people also do the other specialisations i.e. Pits?

Part of the problem with flagging seems to me to be it's image and to a lot of young marshals (and I have thought when I was young) it's the marshalling equivalant of train spotting. Too often I've worked with flaggies who are aloof with the incident team and keep themselves to themselves and while the incident lads are doing track checks, repairing tyre walls, dealing with recoveries or one of the many jobs they can be called on to do between races the flaggie is sat having a brew. Now don't get me wrong there are some great flaggies out there that make sure they are part of the team and when the incident guys are dealing with recoveries muck in or sweep the track to share the work load.

For a lot of younger marshals the thrill (to use a bad word) in marshalling is incident handling and quite often you hear them say that they won't consider flagging regularly until they are too old or simply unable to do incident anymore.

By all means teach everyone the basics. But when I hear that trainees feel that their time has been wasted by being forced to spend a day flagging and guys who should be progressing to trainee IO wouldn't even upgrade to experienced something is clearly wrong. For example I have a friend who is still a green badge after 10 years because he hates flagging so in his words won't waste his valuable spare time doing something he hates even though he'd love to make IO

And as was said by some people earlier in the thread it applies for flaggies too who hate doing incident. We should allow people to specialise in what they want to do and not try and force them to do other duties. Hence why I believe we should revert to the old system of streaming into specialisations once you have received your green badge. Yes we can and should encourage them to try new things but we should never force them!

Lets remember that in most instances making a mistake with a flag (Except yellows obviously) will not get someone hurt which is why incident guys with not much flagging experience can fill a gap when required. But make a mistake trackside when the circuit is live and it's a totally different matter which is why it makes no sense having someone who only wants to flag having to do days on incident to get upgrades.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Part of the problem with flagging seems to me to be it's image and to a lot of young marshals (and I have thought when I was young) it's the marshalling equivalant of train spotting. Too often I've worked with flaggies who are aloof with the incident team and keep themselves to themselves and while the incident lads are doing track checks, repairing tyre walls, dealing with recoveries or one of the many jobs they can be called on to do between races the flaggie is sat having a brew. Now don't get me wrong there are some great flaggies out there that make sure they are part of the team and when the incident guys are dealing with recoveries muck in or sweep the track to share the work load.

It's the only time they get to have a brew - ever tried waving a flag with a cup of tea in the other hand?

Originally Posted by Ubique

Lets remember that in most instances making a mistake with a flag (Except yellows obviously) will not get someone hurt which is why incident guys with not much flagging experience can fill a gap when required. .

Put out a blue flag to a back marker too late - watch them panic and either put the car in the wall or move over on another car

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by exflagman

The main problem I see is the fact that a trainee has to get a flagging assessment in order to get upgraded from the dreaded novice/trainee tag.
In order to achieve this they have to spend some meetings flagging when they have only just started marshalling and hence they probably feel ill equipped to do what most people percieve as a difficult job.

In the current system a Trainee to Track only has to do one flag assesment day - he/she does not have to have done a certain number of days - it is just advised. All they have to show on the assessment is that they understand the flags, and can wave one reasonably competently to a basic standard. So in actual fact they can get away with just one day "wasted" to use the term bandied about on here, and that is their assessment day. They would need to show some competency on that assessment though. There is no obligation for a Trainee to do a certain number of flag days - it was just an advisory.

Originally Posted by exflagman

At the moment the BMMC web site does not give access to the training guidelines document as it is 'awaiting update', but what I can remember of the previous version it did not really seem to give much information of what level of training you are expected to give a trainee during their suggested 5 days 'flagging'.

It would be interesting for people in this situation to enlighten us. Where do you start and how far do you need to take the training

The five days refers to someone upgrading from Track to Experienced Track (not Trainee to Track) - so you would expect that person to have a good understanding of trackside incident work and also to have picked up at least a working and lateral understanding of flags in their adventures up to that point.

In many ways you have hit the nail on the head here

Either the MSA want people to show a little competency so they can take on the flagging duties in an emergency - in which case, you would expect a Track Marshal upgrading to Experienced Track to have a good lateral understanding of flags anyway - so surely one assessment day is enough to show that they either have, or have not, so why the requirment for 5 days + assessment?

Or the MSA want all Experienced Track Marshals also to beexpert flag marshals as well, so in that case why bother having a seperate grade, and we all agree, making someone expert in this discipline takes a lot more than 5 days anyway?

I am sure this situation came about when the flag grade was removed, but reinstated by popular demand. However when reinstated the upgrading sytem for Track marshals was not changed to coincide and match with the reintroduction.

As we have said - may be arbitary anyway - as ExFlagMan says the MSA are issuing a revised system shortly.

[deley]

This thread seems to have decended into some strange world where people are being "forced" to do things that perhaps they "don't want to do" or "don't like to do" .... get over it - much of life is (unfortunately for many people) a compromise between doing what we want / like to do and other things we don't

With regards to what some obviously see as an issue of "having" to flag for a few days and be assessed in order to upgrade to Experienced ..... in the grand scheme of an individuals marshalling life to be frank it isn't exactly a massive number of days to do and you are not expected to become an expert, just sufficiently capable so that if necessary you could be asked to flag at a meeting and there would be a reasonable chance you would at least get the basics right (after all you are being asked to flag in those circumstances because there is a shortage and hence a need for someone to do it). Doing it over 5 days rather than just the assessment day gives a higher chance that you will have seen a wider variety of circumstances from which to learn ...... which is the whole point of the term "experienced".

I can understand the 5 days flagging out of the suggested minimum of 15 days being seen as a high proportion - which it is if you look to u/g after that minimum - however the more days you do the smaller the proportion becomes .... and then after the u/g, if you are really lucky and select only well attended meetings then you may never have to flag again in your life

..... or in the real world you may be at a meeting with few marshals and end up with just you and a 1st/2nd day trainee on post - I would suggest that with the experience of your time on the bank / the little flagging you will have "had" to do / seeing what flaggies do in a normal day when you are doing incident on the bank / the basic flagging covered in the training days / the basic knowledge of the blue book you are supposed to have then you would be a better bet to flag out of the two people


Just a thought

Dave

[Richard Sneader]

Interesting thread this. Not sure how to respond to it. Certainly when I work in Belgium everyone does all duties on the post except Post Chief. So you have to be proficient at all duties. Not sure that would work in the UK.
Personaly I started off flagging long before incident marshalling. When short and I am on the bank or even on rescue we have covered flags. No prob to me. I do enjoy it. Those that think they cant or dont whant to, ok we cant force but I always thought this was part of marshalling to be able to flag. So it might be down to on post training. With this being done correctly with the correct ecouragement and advice what would be the chances of turning those marshals who dont like flags etc being competent flag marshals.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

In the current system a Trainee to Track only has to do one flag assesment day - he/she does not have to have done a certain number of days - it is just advised. All they have to show on the assessment is that they understand the flags, and can wave one reasonably competently to a basic standard.

As I stated, I couldn't remember the old rules - but that is seriously frightening - there you are stood in a gravel trap and the only thing 'protecting' you could be someone who has read the book/seen the video, stood on a flag post all day and possibly not even shown a flag in anger, and has been assessed as competent by someone 30 mtrs away who is occupied with other things and may have never used a flag themselves - they having themseleves become PC having gone through the old IO route.

Now - where is that video of brain surgery on you-tube and that old chart of the human body - I think I will lobotomize myself

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by exflagman

It's the only time they get to have a brew - ever tried waving a flag with a cup of tea in the other hand?


Put out a blue flag to a back marker too late - watch them panic and either put the car in the wall or move over on another car

Ever tried pushing a car or putting a fire out with a cup of tea in your hand? Remember it's the only time the incident team get to have a brew too which is why it gets annoying when part of the team won't help out!

As for your second point in my experience most people I have worked with who are flagging because we are short won't use the blue flag at all as they are not confident in it's use.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by exflagman

As I stated, I couldn't remember the old rules - but that is seriously frightening - there you are stood in a gravel trap and the only thing 'protecting' you could be someone who has read the book/seen the video, stood on a flag post all day and possibly not even shown a flag in anger, and has been assessed as competent by someone 30 mtrs away who is occupied with other things and may have never used a flag themselves - they having themseleves become PC having gone through the old IO route.

Now - where is that video of brain surgery on you-tube and that old chart of the human body - I think I will lobotomize myself

Couldn't agree more - didn't say I agreed with the system! In my view flagging is a seperate discipline entirely, in the same way as Specialist Marshals are. To get my "Specialist" grade I had to start from a "Trainee" again, despite being an Exp Track already.

And so it should be (or similar) with Flagging, which is also, in my mind, a "specialist" role. It will be interesting to actually see what the MSA come up with this time....

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

Doing it over 5 days rather than just the assessment day gives a higher chance that you will have seen a wider variety of circumstances from which to learn ...... which is the whole point of the term "experienced".

An excellent point which I had failed to think about in my previous post (#36).

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by deley

This thread seems to have decended into some strange world where people are being "forced" to do things that perhaps they "don't want to do" or "don't like to do" .... get over it - much of life is (unfortunately for many people) a compromise between doing what we want / like to do and other things we don't

Dave we aren't talking about life in general or work or a million and one other reasons why you sometimes have to do stuff you don't like, we are talking about a hobby. Just incase some people are confused by the concept of a hobby and work being different the Oxford English Dictionary defines a hobby as: ...an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure....

If people stop finding marshalling fun they will stop doing it which will risk us going back to the bad days of a few years ago where we were short of marshals all of the time (as surprising as many of you may find it that even included BTCC meetings).

[skeee]

Originally Posted by Ubique

Ever tried pushing a car or putting a fire out with a cup of tea in your hand? Remember it's the only time the incident team get to have a brew too which is why it gets annoying when part of the team won't help out!

As for your second point in my experience most people I have worked with who are flagging because we are short won't use the blue flag at all as they are not confident in it's use.

I have to agree with Deley on this!

Also surely the only way to really appreciate the use of flags (for a trainee) is to have a go.
Every time I flagged as a trainee a 'real' flaggie was nearby keeping an eye.

I'm sure we can go on with the merits of each other's roles, needless to say we work together, ie whereas I don't prefer to (and avoid it when possible) flag, especially blue, I don't expect the flaggie to grab a broom at the end of session, when I was 'spectating' the race, whilst he was doing his semaphore bit.
Of course if he does pick up the broom first I'd not protest!

[Ubique]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Couldn't agree more - didn't say I agreed with the system! In my view flagging is a seperate discipline entirely, in the same way as Specialist Marshals are. To get my "Specialist" grade I had to start from a "Trainee" again, despite being an Exp Track already.

And so it should be (or similar) with Flagging, which is also, in my mind, a "specialist" role. It will be interesting to actually see what the MSA come up with this time....

Well said TT and that is precisely my point flagging is a speciality and one that requires very different skills to incident. Flag Marshals on the whole do a great job and have to concentrate for the entire race even tho in some races they may only have to show a flag on the green flag lap.

Incident on the other hand may appear to be just stood around doing nothing until a car comes off but thats not the case or should I say shouldn't be, and as an IO I'd be very disapointed to find one of my team "Spectating". We have our own priorities that we are watching out for like lose body work, leaking liquids etc and when there are things like safety cars I expect atleast one of the team to go and help the flaggie out whether that be by holding the SC board, waving a white flag if needed or just giving him a few minutes to give his arm a rest and so I don't think it's too much to ask for them to reciprocate that help by grabbing a broom or kicking a few stones. A good flag marshal is worth their weight in gold but it doesn't mean they are any good at incident and vice versa.

Like TT to get my Specialist grade I had to start from scratch as a trainee even tho I was an IO.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by exflagman

but that is seriously frightening - there you are stood in a gravel trap and the only thing 'protecting' you could be someone who has read the book/seen the video, stood on a flag post all day and possibly not even shown a flag in anger, and has been [etc...]

I think of myself as a pretty decent flaggie. You really think that my competently waved bit of yellow cloth is protecting you?

Might I be so bold as to suggest that you choose to do something other than incident, before you get seriously hurt!

[aland]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

This may all be arbitary anyway - the system is about to change (see BMMC website under "Grading") and the new guidelines will be published soon. I have no idea what is in them, but hopefully our comments about this, the recent thread re who can sign attendance sigs, and the number of days required for an upgrade, have been taken onboard.

great the MSA are listening to us then, as I have said before I have difficulty flagging and TBH I dont enjoy it, I prefer shoving cars in gravel traps and sweeping gravel (indeed on the days flagging I have done i still joined the track crew in sweeping) marshalling is meant to be a hobby albeit a very professional and dangerous one.

dont get me wrong i have massive respect for flaggies as they do a great job and in a lot of ways it is tougher than incident but it is 2 totally seperate disciplines and the MSA should be recognising this and treating as such

[Chigley]

Too often I've worked with flaggies who are aloof with the incident team and keep themselves to themselves and while the incident lads are doing track checks, repairing tyre walls, dealing with recoveries or one of the many jobs they can be called on to do between races the flaggie is sat having a brew

A "good" flaggie always accepts that as part of his duties he is keeping a weather eye out for incident marshals when they are on track at any time to protect / alert them and cover them with a yellow flag even if racing isn't in progress. Therefore if incident are busy a "good" flaggie is also busy. Although now a PC I still love flagging and it won't be the first day where I've gone a whole morning or afternoon session being so busy that I've had no time to eat, drink or sit-down. PC's should also ensure that a flaggie is protecting his incident guys ... it's called teamwork.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Chigley

A "good" flaggie always accepts that as part of his duties he is keeping a weather eye out for incident marshals when they are on track at any time to protect / alert them

Damn right! A whistle is, IMHO, one of the most important parts of a flaggie's kit. Although there are some PCs and IOs who don't like anyone other than themselves using one, I'll use mine unless specifically told not to.