[Official] Austrian Grand Prix 2024

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Dutch chap

FIA clarified the so called Verstappen rule by stating it is allowed in 2017, so what is the Ant talking about?: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...19118/5019118/

It was a great fight and I'm confident they both enjoyed it. Not the outcome of course...

The clarification was that just weaving was no longer an act that would be reported; however, it also made clear that weaving under braking or in the braking zone that was considered potentially dangerous or similar would continue to be reported with a view to being penalised.

Regardless of that, Verstappen was penalised for being responsible for causing a collision, not weaving per se.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well exciting it most certainly was but did that break all records for penalties i wonder

Johnny Herbert was stewarding today. It would be interesting to see if there has been an increase in penalties in previous GPs, while he has been stewarding.

[P38 in workshop]

I think we saw that McLaren now have the fastest car,but Max has the talent to make his car a winner in spite of that.Pity he gives in to the temptation to move it around when he shouldn't.


I wouldn't mind a break from the drivers whining over the radio all the time.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Don’t know if it went out on the sky feed around the world, but Ant Davidson on the Skypad, just dissected the 3 instances and it’s very clear Max was moving in the breaking zone.

Put under real pressure and the original Max 1.0 returns

I thought it was a pretty comprehensive analysis of how Max was pushing past the limits......and of course the stewards agreed - although the penalty was effectively meaningless.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I wouldn't mind a break from the drivers whining over the radio all the time.

Not just the drivers - Red Bull were on the horn making a completely meaningless (and unnecessary) comment on what Lando had said - presumably in an attempt to influence the stewards......

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I thought it was a pretty comprehensive analysis of how Max was pushing past the limits......and of course the stewards agreed - although the penalty was effectively meaningless.

Stewards etc. would have access to data showing braking and steering input, though perhaps not r/t, so you’d think pretty clear. I thought the penalty was for pushing another car off track though? Nothing to do with braking/turning.

Red Bull dropped the ball not telling Max that Lando had an automatic penalty coming.

I also wonder if there might be some carryover as I’m not sure if McLaren took the 5 secs when he pitted. Max’s penalty was meaningless but he served it.

[Richard C]

I like both Max and Lando, so their battle was hard to watch. I think Lando was forcing things but at the same time I think Max's defense at times was over the line of what is acceptable. I felt he was moving around quite a bit in the braking zone.

Race felt rather boring up until the Max/Lando battle. Nice pass from Piastri for second. Too bad he wasn't able to chase down George.

Overall, it's good that we are seeing real battles for race wins now.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Dutch chap

FIA clarified the so called Verstappen rule by stating it is allowed in 2017, so what is the Ant talking about?: https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fi...19118/5019118/

It was a great fight and I'm confident they both enjoyed it. Not the outcome of course...

That was a long time ago - the drivers discuss and agree on what is OK and what is not with the race director and stewards at drivers briefings. They'll effectively have a code of conduct in place on what is acceptable driver etiquette.

Max even kind of referenced himself by saying that when he moved he wasn't (yet) braking so those moves are allowed.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Tourer

That was a long time ago - the drivers discuss and agree on what is OK and what is not with the race director and stewards at drivers briefings. They'll effectively have a code of conduct in place on what is acceptable driver etiquette.

Max even kind of referenced himself by saying that when he moved he wasn't (yet) braking so those moves are allowed.

I believe that they also reference braking zone, I suppose just in case a driver decides to use another competitor's car to help him slow down instead of using his brakes.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Tourer

That was a long time ago - the drivers discuss and agree on what is OK and what is not with the race director and stewards at drivers briefings. They'll effectively have a code of conduct in place on what is acceptable driver etiquette.

Max even kind of referenced himself by saying that when he moved he wasn't (yet) braking so those moves are allowed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNFeqUoyPC4

You can say he moved before he was braking however that's not quite the case. You can say he didn't turn the steering wheel, but he certainly drove into the car beside him in the braking zone by coming across the track. . He moves right, and then left - which is not allowed. He then makes contact with a car in the braking zone (a car which did not change direction), and he leaves less than a cars width for the car alongside. He then runs a competitor off the road on the next straight. Additionally, when Lando took a place off the road he gave it back. When Max used the run off to keep the position, he did not.

How many rules violations can you fit in just over 1 corner?

Drivers in lower formulas have recieved race bans for driving like this. It's time to start holding F1 drivers to the same standard we'd hold a Formula 3 driver to.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNFeqUoyPC4

You can say he moved before he was braking, however there are multiple other violations involved here. He moves right, and then left - which is not allowed. You may not change direction like that. He then makes contact with a car in the braking zone (a car which did not change direction), and he leaves less than a cars width for the car alongside.

I didn't say it, he did - article here.

Not defending Max in any way, just pointing out to an earlier poster that the drivers have an agreed set of driving allowances for close racing. For sure it all got very desperate in those laps and ultimately, Max was the only one who received a penalty for actions in the close racing.

[chillibowl]

Obviously the poor pit stop cost Max as did going out on used mediums, but I also wonder about the prevailing and accepted last stint logic of trying to time your pit stop to come out in clean air while your opponent gets stuck in traffic.

On the surface it seems an obvious tactic, but with the ability to use DRS on backmarkers, did RB create an unintended benefit for Norris in terms of track position? Is that why Norris covered Max’ last stop?

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNFeqUoyPC4

You can say he moved before he was braking however that's not quite the case. You can say he didn't turn the steering wheel, but he certainly drove into the car beside him in the braking zone by coming across the track. . He moves right, and then left - which is not allowed. He then makes contact with a car in the braking zone (a car which did not change direction), and he leaves less than a cars width for the car alongside. He then runs a competitor off the road on the next straight. Additionally, when Lando took a place off the road he gave it back. When Max used the run off to keep the position, he did not.

How many rules violations can you fit in just over 1 corner?

Drivers in lower formulas have recieved race bans for driving like this. It's time to start holding F1 drivers to the same standard we'd hold a Formula 3 driver to.

A ban? Jeez people are really taking this incident to an extreme. This was a clumsy low level incident with some questionable but not terribly dangerous driving from both drivers.

Max is at fault for the incident of course, but his squeeze on entry was actually far less than Sainz did to Max at the same corner last year. On that occasion, Max decided to actually drive almost off the course to avoid the contact; that is something that Norris didn't do today. Carlos' defence was almost a carbon copy except Max decided to give himself more room in 2023.
Rightly or wrongly, Norris held his line and the slightest of touches punctured both cars. Max deserves the penalty for contact, but Norris could have avoided it as Max did it in 2023.

Ref: https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/co...ainz/#lightbox

This incident was nowhere near what we saw in 2021, or even in 2016 with Rosberg vs. Hamilton at the very same corner; or Hamilton forcing Rosberg off track at T1 in Austin 2015.

As for the other examples you have cited, the outcomes were different because the actions were different. Norris conceded the position because his divebomb took him off track. Max didn't have to concede his position because he was forced off track by Norris' divebomb. I suspect Norris was trying to avoid a penalty by giving the position back, he was already on a final warning. I don't think this was the case when Max went off track.

Lastly, I'm not all that sure Max was trying to keep Norris behind when going down the straight. It looked more like he was getting off the racing line for the Alpine that was approaching them both. However, lets assume he was pushing Norris off track...were you calling for a ban for Norris when he was pushing Max onto the grass at 150 mph before corner 1 at Spain?

This whole incident was caused by tit for tat driving by both of them.

[Sandgroper]

Expensive weekend for %%$#&%^^&&& Yuki !!!!

Sometimes ya just have to hate the onboard commentary availability right.

[S griffin]

Well that was a race with an unexpected twist at the end. Really feel for Lando, he did nothing wrong in that incident with Max. Max proved once again he has a habit of not being able to race cleanly. Some late defensive moves finally culminated in both getting a puncture due to him squeezing Lando on the outside for no good reason. And then put him on the grass afterwards for good measure! Seems unfair Max was able to continue, while Lando went out, especially as Max extended his lead more than if he won with Lando second. What's worse is the 10 second penalty made no difference to Max. And once again the track limits argument becomes farcical. How did Max not get anything for running wide and gaining an advantage, whilst Lando gets one despite giving it back? I know it was a 3rd strike for Lando, but still

Great win for Russell and Mercedes. Ok he was helped by the incident in front of him and the late VSC, but still he made no mistake and it shows how far Merc have come that they were able to benefit from any incident from the first two. Great drive from Piastri after that very harsh track limit penalty in qualifying. A case of what might of been. Great move round the outside of Sainz. Shows everyone what happens when two drivers race cleanly

Good to see both Haas up there. Is this a turning point for them? But Checo once again showing RBR can't rely on him if something happens to Max. Really questions need to be asked. And another disappointing race for Alonso, I fear he's starting to lose his grip

Anyway it's nice to have yet another different winner, even if Max is still far ahead. Roll on Silverstone

[PhilipR]

In an ironic twist last year Lando was complaining on the radio during the Austrian grand prix about Lewis breaking track limits - now Mclaren have lost the race due to track limits with Piastri and had Lando overtaken Max he would have still received the 5 seconds track limit penalty and probably lose the race

It was an enjoyable end to the race and we missed this type of excitement last couple of years. However I did notice that Max seemed to have been under stress recently especially on radio conversations. Seems like actually having competition(I still thing the car is fastest but not by much) is bringing this type of behaviour under stress.

[Sodemo]

I think unfortunately, Max never learned the lessons of years past. If he drives like a jackass then there are usually consequences to that. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[steve_r]

RB management obviously are going to stand by their star man. But if no one ever tells their star man when he has done something wrong, then he is not going to learn from it and history will repeat itself. And now history is repeating itself.

[greentrumpet]

I hope this was a one-off, but have long believed that if another car/driver appears capable of a sustained challenge that MV will return to form. We shall see.

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNFeqUoyPC4

Drivers in lower formulas have recieved race bans for driving like this. It's time to start holding F1 drivers to the same standard we'd hold a Formula 3 driver to.

I agree. If you are found responsible for causing a collision that completely wrecks the race of the victim, a 10 second penalty is simply not stern enough.

We saw the same thing with Sainz hitting Piastri in Miami.

Both were 'low-ish' speed incidents and therefore not particularly dangerous, but I think the rules need to be stronger here to truly discourage this.

Not just this season either. I hate to mention this, but in a certain accident in 2021 at Silverstone, at a bonkers high-speed corner, the victim of said crash went to hospital, the aggregator won the race after receiving a 10-sec penalty.

The rules should be clear - take another car out and you are likely to get no points in that race; take another car out in a dangerous setting and you are looking at a ban.

Just my 2 pence.

[morninggents]

The time penalty thing is difficult to get right. As you mentioned at Silverstone in 2021 Lewis got a 10 second penalty in the early part of the race which he had time to overcome. Had the incident occurred towards the end of the race perhaps he would not have had time to overcome it.
Should not a penalty have the same effect whenever it is imposed?

[steve_r]

It's almost impossible to set up a penalty system that covers every single outcome in an even way. This weekend and Silverstone 2021 are examples of penalties not really meaning anything. But you have others where a 5 second penalty combined with a safety car bunching up the field costs a driver a huge amount of positions.

Anyway, Verstappen's penalty was the self-inflicted accident itself that pushed him from 1st to 5th. Norris had the track limits penalty looming anyway, which meant with hindsight that Verstappen really did throw the win away, as he was more than capable to following Norris around for the last half a dozen laps and finishing less than 5 seconds behind him. I wonder whether the RB pitwall told him about that before the accident?

[morninggents]

A deduction of a set number of championship points would have the same effect whenever imposed.
Just a thought.

[Mike Harte]

Media reports are that the pit-wall failed to inform Verstappen about the Norris penalty.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by steve_r

It's almost impossible to set up a penalty system that covers every single outcome in an even way. This weekend and Silverstone 2021 are examples of penalties not really meaning anything. But you have others where a 5 second penalty combined with a safety car bunching up the field costs a driver a huge amount of positions.

Anyway, Verstappen's penalty was the self-inflicted accident itself that pushed him from 1st to 5th. Norris had the track limits penalty looming anyway, which meant with hindsight that Verstappen really did throw the win away, as he was more than capable to following Norris around for the last half a dozen laps and finishing less than 5 seconds behind him. I wonder whether the RB pitwall told him about that before the accident?

Apparently RBR didn't tell Verstapen about Norris facing a track limit penalty.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...n-gp/10630009/

Interestingly and ironically, by finishing 5th and Norris DNFing, Verstappen has a points lead of 237 to 156, 81 points difference. If Verstappen had won because of Norris incurring the penalty and therefore finishing 2nd, the points lead would be 244 to 168, a difference of 76 points.