Champ Car Sued By China Promoter (merged)

[indycool]

By what I read, the promoters were switched, not the sponsors. It's the first promoter that's suing.

http://www.autoracingdaily.com/artic...foot_in_china/

[JohnSSC]

What Tim said and what IC said.

The promoters were switched.

As I noted in the FIA thread, this is the goofy Korean race all over again: on the schedule, off the schedule, TBA , the promoter this, blah blah blah.

The basic failure to have, before the season starts, a firm schedule is inexcusable. For all the ridiculous droning on and on about "business plans" and the "business model" it would seem that no one at CC really has a grip. Essential to any "business plan" is "who, what, when were and why (not unlike journalism!)" in that you need to know when and where the business activity is going to take place. If Spec Miata Series can have a set schedule before the season starts, why can't CC?

Further, if you are trying to enhance your fan base, choosing to not mention that a race date is likely to be washed until after the fan base reads about the lawsuit is not even dumb: it is below horrible.

CC is turning into a television series that goes on "hiatus" periodically due to lack of interest. We have Spring Break now and it looks like the teams will be able to drive around and see the leaves change color in the Fall.

[Leighton Irwin]

I had no problem with John Bishop and IMSA. Just SCCA mangling every pro series. Oh and I held an IMSA license.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

CC is turning into a television series that goes on "hiatus" periodically due to lack of interest. We have Spring Break now and it looks like the teams will be able to drive around and see the leaves change color in the Fall.

John, sometimes you really crack me up.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The basic failure to have, before the season starts, a firm schedule is inexcusable. For all the ridiculous droning on and on about "business plans" and the "business model" it would seem that no one at CC really has a grip. Essential to any "business plan" is "who, what, when were and why (not unlike journalism!)" in that you need to know when and where the business activity is going to take place. If Spec Miata Series can have a set schedule before the season starts, why can't CC?

I agree John, even a lousy plan's better than no plan at all. But I think CCWS may be in alot more trouble than some people care to admit, here, or at CCWS. I dunno, but the 2007 season is not coming together very well at all; even those items they had planned. All in, I'd say it's not looking very good right now. Maybe it's just the painful PR but, I doubt it.

[Purist]

It sounded like the China agreement was DONE and ready to go ahead when all this came about. I still come back to the point that if KK, GF, and PG weren't astute businessmen, they wouldn't be in a position to run and finacne teams, much less an entire series. So, I would say it is definitely NOT an easy thing to tell who is a good business partner. And this doen't sound like Korea, where the promoter/organizer simply couldn't get it together. This sounds like one promoter CHOSE to back out and anothe came in, and now the first is whining and wants their money back! By the sound of it, why should I have nay simpathy for that promoter. And the FIA getting its fingers in this seems ridiculous if the race is three weeks and 800 miles away; it just seems like pandering to F1, which is an FIA series (conflict of interest here perhaps?). By FIA's apparent logic in this case, most of the North American racing calendar conflicts too much to hold most of the races that are scheduled in this country, and the US has a rather low population density compared to Europe or China, FWIW.

[indycool]

I don't know, Purist. On or about Feb. 10, KK talked to TG about free engines for Indy. Now, there had to be something wrong with the China deal THEN if KK was sniffing around Indy. The FIA approved China in May and Assen and Zolder in September, but not China in October, so the FIA approved three out of four, so there would seem to be no clear-cut blame or evil conspiracy on the FIA for this.

We don't know: Who knew what or who did what when? We don't know if the Sino lawsuit has merit or not. We have no idea when promoters or investors changed, and if investors changed, promoters changed and I've never heard who the new promoter is, not that I would know him from the last hobo out of the boxcar anyway.

Because it's confused and everyone wants to find either excuses or someone to blame, it acts like Ansan. And I think it's getting a lot of talk on the forums because people just can't believe CC would do another embarrassment like Ansan. But guess it did.

[JohnSSC]

Again, the FIA does not own or put on Formula 1. They are the regulating body...

Lets not even go with the "astute" businessman thing...the Chinese are not exactly idiots in the business world, and at least one of the Amigos is a bit busy with a class action lawsuit filed by shareholders who would not share the opinion that the individual is "astute."

Bottom line here is this foolishness happens over and over again. It is not the FIA's fault that these guys cannot get a schedule together for this year and have not had a confirmed schedule how many times since they took over? What a terrific business plan. We can call it the "TBA" business plan. I hope my company adopts it, I mean really, it would make it more exciting for me if I did not know if I showed up at work if the doors would actually be open..."Sorry, our plans fell through, try again tomorrow!"

[Purist]

I'd bet that especially with the temporary venues, it is often impossible to know if you've started negiations soon enough ahead of time. I should think the windows of opportunity for them are rather limited, as far as getting the ball rolling. And how many months did it take to finalize things for Vegas or Phoenix? You CANNOT know a full year ahead how things will pan out and thus what you can reasonably plan for the following year.

And before you jump on me about how they should be running more permanent venues then; many of those venues weren't drawing the crowds. Laguna was a scheduling screw-up, but the others were declining without that kind of shuffling going on. A sanction can do wider area promotions, but if the locals won't do an adequate job in their region, the sanction doesn't have the resources to fill that kind of a gap for 15-20 races a year, period! Often, the best research and focus groups are wrong as well (kind of like exit polls), which doesn't make local marketing by the sanction any easier.

For those who are thinking of NASCAR, that's just a case of utter saturation of the viewing audience to the point where you have to be a hermit to not be aware of it if you're in this country.

[indycool]

Other sanctioning bodies don't seem to have that problem. Granted, I'm not talking hardcore international, but NASCAR went to Mexico City a couple times without cancellation and the IRL just picked up Motegi where CART left off. So it's harder, or different, to do. People figure it out.....or not.

[JohnSSC]

It has nothing to do with temporary circuits. Other top-line racing series around the world all manage to schedule things prior to the season starting. This one can't seem to. It looks from here like a (lack of) competence thing.

Grand-Am, ALMS, IRL, A1GP, etc all seem to be able to publish a schedule that does not include that most favorite of race dates: "TBA." Why can't this one?

[MCWB]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

A1GP

?! A1GP has indeed had its fair share of TBAs, TBCs, changes and cancellations, it's almost in exactly the same boat in terms of scheduling... by the way, how good was the A1GP race in Beijing?

At the end of the day though I like watching both A1GP and Champcar, so what does it matter if there's the odd hiccup in their schedules? I can't say the Beijing race ruined the past A1GP season for me! Not everyone has the luxury of being able to confirm dates years in advance at stable venues...

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

It looks from here like a (lack of) competence thing.

John, if the market were there for a full CCWS calendar and 30 cars in the field, I think these guys would've put it together. Yet more evidence there's no room for two "top" open wheel series in North America IMO. They must be asking themselves right about now at what point they cut bait.

For me, well, it is another way to unify the sport, hard as that pill may be to swallow.

[Last2LiftOff]

Boy, if ever I wanted someone to argue with me on a post, that was it.

[paul-collins]

Sorry, L2LO, but you won't find many to take a contrarian position on this.

At the most, to me, it appears to be a hobby or vanity project. There's currently a limited market for what is being peddled.

[Asa]

I am just very disappointed that Zhuhai has lost the race. Given that the promoter and Champ Car are in a law suit right now, I do not think the race will come to Zhuhai in the future... sigh...

Sadly, the real losers in all this are the race fans.

[indycool]

There are some who are saying that it's the FIRST Chinese promoter (Sino) which has sued and there is a SECOND Chinese promoter out there somewhere.

The biggest problem is that all the Internet addicts who fashion themselves as journalists or reporters don't even know their names, let alone get a comment from them, or the Zhuhai track because if the promoters are different from the track, it must be a track rental, or the Chinese ASN.

So, nobody knows their end of the story on this side of the pond....and maybe not even over there.

[Asa]

I can tell you that the promoter is not the track owner. It is a track rental deal. Corbeil is the race promoter, he has a contract with Steve Johnson. I don't know of anyone else.

[indycool]

Asa, you're right. I just read the pleadings of the Sino lawsuit against CC. Someone named Elliot Friedman from California is involved as a money guy for something called FRC USA LLC, of which Sino (Cormier?) is listed in the suit as an "assignee."

In fact, the Sino pleadings allege several payments made to Zhuhai for track rental.

[Davhut]

The People's Republic of China certainly doesn't want to take on the real cause of all this nonsense ... Bernie and Max.

[JohnSSC]

Yes, I am sure the Politburo collectively lay awake at night, hiding under their beds in fear of BE and Max...

Please, they are rich, they wield a certain amount of power, but they trouble the leadership of the Peoples' Republic of China not one whit...

By the way, not everything in China is owned collectively, might be worth noting that this is 2007, Mao is long gone and there is private ownership of property in China...

[Asa]

Why should the track owners be worried if they are paid the track rental? It is the promoter and Champ Car that is fighting each other.

Champ Car, through ACCUS, tried to get a Chinese race into their calendar and it is rejected and it is China's problem? Is any British people to blame if the same thing happened to Silverstone (if the promoter is not British)?

My suggestion is, maybe Champ Car can still submit to the FIA to host a non-championship race at Zhuhai for 2007, before hosting a proper championship race in 2008. Otherwise the project will die.

[indycool]

The track owners aren't worried. The promoter claims in his suit that he's already paid some track rental....for May.

Also, as somebody pointed out, Zhuhai has already booked the two October dates for big motorcycle weekends.