How many years does Champcar have left?

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

Agree with John SSC....or at least CC seems to think so. CC has trouble getting viable races at U.S. race tracks so it goes to streets, has the same problem there and goes international. Guess if that becomes a problem, they try to run on Mars.

That is the situation and does make things extremely hard for CC to run races in the states hence its what happened with the ovals, and now seems that way with the streets and roads.. Thing is the IRL is also starting to have problems with ISC and ovals are starting to be dropped due to similar problems. I'd put the situation more AOWR then just one series but CC currently is finding it extremely hard but not just CC anymore.

[Hazza]

I'd put the situation more AOWR then just one series but CC currently is finding it extremely hard but not just CC anymore.

Huh? Is there some grammar in thar' Luke?

I jest I jest. I agree 100%

[D.R.T.]

ChampCar will survive as long as the owners support it, the same as the IRL. Same since 2003.

So I dont see the logic in arguing the IRL as a head and shoulders stronger option at the current time.

[fazzaz]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

ChampCar will survive as long as the owners support it, the same as the IRL. Same since 2003.

So I dont see the logic in arguing the IRL as a head and shoulders stronger option at the current time.

Two words: Indy 500.

The Indy 500, however you may wish to devalue it, is an immensely important race, and an immensely profitable race. It has the highest one-day attendance of any race outside NASCAR; its two-week totals are great, and all paid too. In terms of the Hulman family holdings, the Indy 500 more than supports the IRL, and that ignores the Brickyard 400 and now Moto GP.

On the other hand, Kevin Kalkoven and Gerry Forsythe (and Dan Pettit?) are funding ChampCar from their personal holdings -- from their wallets, as it were.

Big difference.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by fazzaz

Two words: Indy 500.

The Indy 500, however you may wish to devalue it, is an immensely important race, and an immensely profitable race. It has the highest one-day attendance of any race outside NASCAR; its two-week totals are great, and all paid too. In terms of the Hulman family holdings, the Indy 500 more than supports the IRL, and that ignores the Brickyard 400 and now Moto GP.

On the other hand, Kevin Kalkoven and Gerry Forsythe (and Dan Pettit?) are funding ChampCar from their personal holdings -- from their wallets, as it were.

Big difference.

Indy's main value is that it could be a building block for a new series. It used to be a one month deal but really only race day is what draws the crowds. It doesn't even sell out anymore. 15 years ago you could hardly get tickets now you can get them in blocks of 100.

If it was so important to drivers and teams and sponsors and fans, tony george wouldn't have to shell out for 15 field fillers.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Indy's main value is that it could be a building block for a new series. It used to be a one month deal but really only race day is what draws the crowds. It doesn't even sell out anymore. 15 years ago you could hardly get tickets now you can get them in blocks of 100.

If it was so important to drivers and teams and sponsors and fans, tony george wouldn't have to shell out for 15 field fillers.

The point fazzaz is making here, which seems to have been missed, is that this still is the biggest non-NASCAR race and it is also an enormous income-generating event. He did not make any claims to attendance as compared to years past.

What is missed is that in comparison to CC, the business end of the IRL is generating enough income to keep the IRL going without anyone having to write a personal check. CC does not have that luxury. The longer personal checks need to be written to keep CC afloat the shorter the anticipated lifespan of the series will be.

However one views TG/the IRL, having the 500 as an event generates sponsorship, TV and fan revenues that keeps the wheels turning the rest of the season.

How long will whatever number of Amigos there currently are be willing to write checks out of their personal accounts?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

What is missed is that in comparison to CC, the business end of the IRL is generating enough income to keep the IRL going without anyone having to write a personal check. CC does not have that luxury. The longer personal checks need to be written to keep CC afloat the shorter the anticipated lifespan of the series will be.

However one views TG/the IRL, having the 500 as an event generates sponsorship, TV and fan revenues that keeps the wheels turning the rest of the season.

Absolute nonsense. tony george is funding vision racing out of his pocket as well as field fillers for indy. The irl is struggling for car count and sponsors right now outside of the top 3 teams.

The 500 is no longer the money earner it was. As far as we can tell the irl has never turned a profit. That money gets sucked up from somewhere. The fact that the league still couldn't pull it off after toyota, honda and chevy dumped hundreds of millions in and still the series is barely here. Time to give it up. Recall what the irl was started for and what the end result is and I don't think any rational person can justify what has happened over the past 15 years.

That the amigos are continually villified for trying to keep the original series alive is absurd. Who started this thing? Jeezz.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The 500 is no longer the money earner it was.

Why do you say the I500 isn't the money earner it once was?

- is attendance down on race day?
- are the seats that much cheaper?
- What is the real revenue for the month of May to IMS?

As far as we can tell the irl has never turned a profit. That money gets sucked up from somewhere. The fact that the league still couldn't pull it off after toyota, honda and chevy dumped hundreds of millions in and still the series is barely here. Time to give it up. Recall what the irl was started for and what the end result is and I don't think any rational person can justify what has happened over the past 15 years.

Who is the we, who can't tell if the IRL turned a profit, or a loss? Is there evidence either way, in the public domain?

That the amigos are continually villified for trying to keep the original series alive is absurd. Who started this thing? Jeezz.

I'm sorry, I see this post as an attempt to derail the thread, to have what is a painful discussion closed, by starting an argument.

In my opinion, the IRL is nearly a break even proposition, maybe a small loss, maybe a small profit. That isn't the topic here though.

We know CART (MPH) was a massive money loser. We assume that revenues have not increased since it became CCWS. We assume that there are basic costs that cannot go away, and that CCWS is nowhere near a break even proposition. There is no real business case for CCWS.

However, there is also no hard evidence that CCWS will close down anytime soon either, as it will exist as long as the existing, or future owners wish to spend whatever money is necessary to keep it going. It has become a vanity project/hobby pastime at this point. It will last as long as there is sufficient funding/will to keep it so, but it is past the point of ever being a "business".

The IRL folks are all praying for CCWS to cease to exist, or waive the merge white flag, so that their weak side will have some hope for growth.

Fans of the Open Wheel we knew in the 80's and 90's want one series, hoping that we can get back a relevant series of some kind.

Hardline forum posters on both sides spew rhetoric and hate that devalues their thoughts. This is crazy talk, the my series sucks just slightly less than yours does.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...
That the amigos are continually villified for trying to keep the original series alive is absurd. ....

Ms, the first and foremost villifiers of the amigos are in the CC support base here at 10/10; threads about CC's troubles are filled with accuses of mismanagement about them.

What we say on the IRL side is, on the contrary, that the basic problem of CC is a wrong business idea (i.e. AOW racing without Indy500 at first, then searching for courses worldwide just to attract some local drivers) which leads to bad results regardless the management skills of the amigos, which have proven , in different businesses, absolutely good.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Absolute nonsense. tony george is funding vision racing out of his pocket as well as field fillers for indy. The irl is struggling for car count and sponsors right now outside of the top 3 teams.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The IRL folks are all praying for CCWS to cease to exist, or waive the merge white flag, so that their weak side will have some hope for growth.

Why dont we pray that both waive the white flag and work for a better future, rather than plainly hoping one organisation fails.

[JohnSSC]

While that is a reasonable thought, D.R.T., there is just not enough fan base/sponsor dollars to support both.

Despite the histrionics vis a vis the 500, imho it is clear that the funding for CC is primarily personal and the funding for the IRL comes out of business revenue.

Without major progress, I do not see anyone, no matter how much they love it, funding CC indefinitely from their own pocket.

And could we discuss this pretty-please without the whole "well you know who started it" routine. I am tired of having our collective heads up our arse examining our own entrails about who did what to who first. It is ten years on. It is a formula that is broken. It needs to be fixed. I wish anyone who could, would.

[mountainstar]

- is attendance down on race day? Yup see the bare aluminum
- are the seats that much cheaper? Yup, you can buy them on race day for $10
- What is the real revenue for the month of May to IMS? Not what it used to be. It used to be a month event, now only has one day of interest. Ask any indy business in the tourist trade to compare.

"Who is the we, who can't tell if the IRL turned a profit, or a loss? Is there evidence either way, in the public domain? " Yes there is. Indystar archives is were you can start. Have fun I'm not pulling it up for you yet again.


"I'm sorry, I see this post as an attempt to derail the thread, to have what is a painful discussion closed, by starting an argument." With the constant bashing of champcar here, it is fair to examine how we ended up here.

"In my opinion, the IRL is nearly a break even proposition, maybe a small loss, maybe a small profit. That isn't the topic here though.

We know CART (MPH) was a massive money loser. We assume that revenues have not increased since it became CCWS. We assume that there are basic costs that cannot go away, and that CCWS is nowhere near a break even proposition. There is no real business case for CCWS."

They don't have the expenses they used to for one thing.

"Hardline forum posters on both sides spew rhetoric and hate that devalues their thoughts. This is crazy talk, the my series sucks just slightly less than yours does."

When the indy circuit is bulldozed and replaced with a Home Depot and Sonny's BBQ all will be right with the world.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Why dont we pray that both waive the white flag and work for a better future, rather than plainly hoping one organisation fails.

I think in 2008 someones hand is going to get forced from what I hear.

[indycool]

There is NOT credible evidence of profits for IMS, the IRL or The Hulman Corp. in the archives of the Indianapolis Star or the Indianapolis Business Journal. It's a private company. No numbers have ever been released.

And whose hand is going to be forced to do what?

[fazzaz]

"When the indy circuit is bulldozed and replaced with a Home Depot and Sonny's BBQ all will be right with the world."

Having read your previous statement I suspect you're serious with that thought. You perhaps should read Fogulhund's post again. Carefully.

I was born in Indianapolis, attended my first 500 in 1949, and still have ties to people in the area who have been associated with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway for a very long time.

There will always be an Indianapolis Motor Speedway. There will always be an Indianapolis 500. The cars racing in that event will not necessarily always have open wheels. Those who don't understand this strategic possibility or the Hulman family are deluding themselves.

Fz.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

There is NOT credible evidence of profits for IMS, the IRL or The Hulman Corp. in the archives of the Indianapolis Star or the Indianapolis Business Journal. It's a private company. No numbers have ever been released.

And whose hand is going to be forced to do what?

Going by that logic, with champcar being a private company there is no credible evidence that they lose money is there?

No numbers, but proof is there. I've posted it several times before and don't see the need to do so again.

[mountainstar]

[QUOTE=fazzazThere will always be an Indianapolis Motor Speedway. There will always be an Indianapolis 500. The cars racing in that event will not necessarily always have open wheels. Those who don't understand this strategic possibility or the Hulman family are deluding themselves.

Fz.[/QUOTE]

That's a pretty outstanding statement considering world history and logic. What tangible item has ever lasted forever?

Keep in mind at one point in it's life indy had grass growing though the track.

[Tim Northcutt]

By "someone's hand is going to be forced," I'm assuming that this will refer to either Honda or ABC "forcing" the IRL to merge with that viable juggernaut known as CCWS, or they will pull all of their support?

Only the dwindling bank accounts of the Amigos would "Force their hand" in 2008....after all, they have no manufacturer or network support....

Just a guess

But I'll bet I'm pretty warm, aren't I, mountainstar?

[indycool]

mountainstar, Indy DOES have grass growing through four holes of a redesigned golf course and for the races, spectator mounds of grass on the infield between Turns 2 and 3. The track is now asphalt, but the yard of bricks is still there. It has a new pagoda, bigger and taller than the previous one. It has new garages from the old wooden green-and-white ones.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Going by that logic, with champcar being a private company there is no credible evidence that they lose money is there?

No numbers, but proof is there. I've posted it several times before and don't see the need to do so again.

I have never seen a link to actual numbers, to be honest, but am willing to read any you care to provide a link for.

As far as the grass growing, aside from the golf course, there was this little matter called World War II that interrupted activities at the Speedway. Having grown up in a house with a brick front sidewalk, I know only too well how quickly grass will appear - and how long it takes to remove...

Since there is no obvious money coming in to CC, I reckon you can say CC is not losing any as it had none to begin with.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I have never seen a link to actual numbers, to be honest, but am willing to read any you care to provide a link for.

As far as the grass growing, aside from the golf course, there was this little matter called World War II that interrupted activities at the Speedway. Having grown up in a house with a brick front sidewalk, I know only too well how quickly grass will appear - and how long it takes to remove...

Since there is no obvious money coming in to CC, I reckon you can say CC is not losing any as it had none to begin with.

That's just the point, it could be WW3, a tornado, a fire, a sell out, a buy out, public safety issues, etc. Could be anything. You don't know, you can't declare the 500 will run for all eternity. Things change.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

That's a pretty outstanding statement considering world history and logic. What tangible item has ever lasted forever?.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

That's just the point, it could be WW3, a tornado, a fire, a sell out, a buy out, public safety issues, etc. Could be anything. You don't know, you can't declare the 500 will run for all eternity. Things change.

Please keep serious ms, of course nobody care what will be in 10.000 yrs; we're just considering a realistic time horizon, and unless you join Al Quaeda and make 10 planes drop on IMS, Indy500 is not in jeopardy.
Even a disgrace like the ones you wish er... refer to, could provoke nothing more than one year stop, but certainly not the end of Indy500

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Keep in mind at one point in it's life indy had grass growing though the track.

And yet they survived those hard times, which should prove your doom predictions/wishful thinkings are quite far from reality

[JohnSSC]

Of course, at this point the focus of the conversation has been successfully changed with nary a reminder from some of the other folks for us to keep on track lest the mods be alerted...

My only comment in re: the nihilism is that if the 500 is not permanent, CC is less permanent...

Hopefully now we can get back to discussing CC's lack of permanence.

[Craig]

I think most people are suitably bored by now, John. The bitterness of what has happened in the past is downright tedious and turns people off. That's why no one outside the die hards cares two tosses about either Champcar or IRL these days. Until people on this board can see the bigger picture then things are not going to be any better. Same with the organisers. If they persist in going in their own directions for their own petty reasons then both series are dead. Period.

[indycool]

Agree to an extent, Craig. "Confused" might be a closer term than bored. The casual fan doesn't have ENOUGH interest to keep 'em straight or take a side. Geography is more important. Is one of 'em running near here? Oval or road course are important because the vast majority out there are fans of or lean to one or the other. And if he can't keep 'em straight easily, he goes fishing.