FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by adam46

I like the idea of having a Faster GT Class and a Slower One.

What can I say I grew up playing GTR and watching FIA GT as part of the LG Super Weekend package, so that's my idea of GT racing.

I guess I always have some form of solace with the (Dutch) Supercar Challenge...

Same here, i'd love to see an aventador, and a f12 Berlinetta runing in a GT3+ category.

I think what the fia/aco is planning is to upgrade their GTE machinery, if they are planning a forced GT3 machinery homologation retirement, then maybe its time to Ratel to set his own ruleset out of the fia rules for Machinery and plan his own direction with no FIA involvement anywhere, with the same phylosophy than the current GT3 ruleset.

[joeb]

I'm interested in how this new class plays out in the technology front. Many of today's sports cars are coming out with hybrids or alternative power trains and this trend will only continue. How do these higher tech cars fit into a formula that is supposed to be cheaper? I like the idea of cost savings but I don't want to see the cars dumbed down.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by adam46

I think I will never like GT racing as much as I did from 2001-2006-ish with proper multi-class racing. I like the idea of having a Faster GT Class and a Slower One.

I agree with this too. I like the idea of a jaw dropping monster gt class, and a smaller class. Along the lines of GT1/GT2 or the old IMSA GTO/GTU spread, or the capacity groupings from the old, old gt days.

[DS"]

I think this is good news for GT racing, as it will be made more efficient through the future single GT class. I can only see few problems with its implementation. After all, for endurance racing you can do WEC, while the national GT series can continue to do sprint races. It should be really great for a GT team to do the LeMans 24h, Spa 24h, a couple of WEC rounds, as well as a national series like the ADAC GT Masters with the same car.
But I wonder where SRO will be left in this. The Blancpain Endurance Series might become redundant, if WEC and eventually ELMS run to the same regulations.
Speaking of the Spa 24h, could it become an ELMS round in the future, once Blancpain vanishes? Probably not, as the ACO runs after "Thou shall not have another 24h race besides Le Mans", but the Spa 24h has to go somewhere, if Blancpain really was to become obsolete in the future.

[Speed-King]

FIA GT worked pretty well, even while the same cars were allowed to run at LM, so I don't really see BES becoming obsolete any time soon.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by DS"

I think this is good news for GT racing, as it will be made more efficient through the future single GT class. I can only see few problems with its implementation. After all, for endurance racing you can do WEC, while the national GT series can continue to do sprint races. It should be really great for a GT team to do the LeMans 24h, Spa 24h, a couple of WEC rounds, as well as a national series like the ADAC GT Masters with the same car.
But I wonder where SRO will be left in this. The Blancpain Endurance Series might become redundant, if WEC and eventually ELMS run to the same regulations.

Well, sorry of your ideas, but i don't see Mercedes ,Nissan ,Audi ,Ferrari ,Porsche ,AM ,Jag, LAmborghini, Mclaren (Bentley,Ford,Chevrolet)... all together (1 car x team x brand?) in Le Mans or worst in the expensiver WEC, some changes need to be done there, so start to think for a Better formula if you want everything in the ACO/FIA Style, or leaving brands behind like allways (Worst for some of us!!)... surrealist.

[tux]

The only concern i would have is that national series might suffer for a season or two until prices of second hand "new" GT cars come down because im sure the current generation of cars will not be able to compete outright despite the promise of equalisation with the new machinery. I mean can you see them allowing an old spec GTE/GT3 being able to beat a new spec car, will never be allowed to happen with the manufactures wanting to sell brand new spec cars.

Still the move to 1 set of regulations will be a huge benefit for every championship regardless of how well they are doing now, id imagine we will even see some of the big championships having to turn away entrants. Good move by the ACO/FIA to bring this along.

If you think about it this is a logical step to take because GTE has been ebbing away recently outside of the ALMS and GT3 has grown to be an excellent class, the performance levels are similar and the technology levels in GT3 are getting up to GTE levels now. I like it alot. Still wont beat AMR v Corvette from 05-08 though.......

EDIT: When i think some more about this, the market will become saturated with old spec GT3 & GTE cars that will be available cheaply for the championships like Britcar, GT Cup etc. Im getting too excited about this, someone hold me down quick!!!!!!

How long do you think they will allow the current generation of GT cars to compete for? 1-2 seasons or until the next regulation change?

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Well, sorry of your ideas, but i don't see Mercedes ,Nissan ,Audi ,Ferrari ,Porsche ,AM ,Jag, LAmborghini, Mclaren (Bentley,Ford,Chevrolet)... all together (1 car x team x brand?) in Le Mans or worst in the expensiver WEC, some changes need to be done there, so start to think for a Better formula if you want everything in the ACO/FIA Style, or leaving brands behind like allways (Worst for some of us!!)... surrealist.

You just listed 12 manufacturers. If each brand brings 2 cars to Le Mans, that is 24 cars...this year at Le Mans there was 22 GT cars. So I don't understand what you are worried about.

The following series can accept this new unified class:
WEC (+ Le Mans)
ALMS/GRAND-AM (+Daytona, Sebring)
ELMS - if it is ressurrected
AsLMS - if it is successful
BES
BSS
GT Open
Along with many national GT series

[DS"]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Well, sorry of your ideas, but i don't see Mercedes ,Nissan ,Audi ,Ferrari ,Porsche ,AM ,Jag, LAmborghini, Mclaren (Bentley,Ford,Chevrolet)... all together (1 car x team x brand?) in Le Mans or worst in the expensiver WEC, some changes need to be done there, so start to think for a Better formula if you want everything in the ACO/FIA Style, or leaving brands behind like allways (Worst for some of us!!)... surrealist.

Why should it be a bad thing, if manufacturers start entering the GT classes in the WEC and LeMans? They could surely need a good number of entrants. It would also be cheaper for manufacturers, who don't want to enter LMP racing, but still want to present their marque in a World Championship.

@Speed-King: Back in the day, you only had LMS and FIA GT in Europe. The national championships in Europe also weren't as strong as they are today. But now you have WEC, a possible ELMS for 2013 and strong national series. I honestly can't see where Blancpain would fit between all these series. Especially since all these series run on a single set of regulations. I only see a SLIGHT chance for Blancpain as a championship for truly private teams, in case the GT class in WEC becomes a manufacturer battlefield. But even then, you'd still have ELMS as an alternative for manufacturers.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by DS"

@Speed-King: Back in the day, you only had LMS and FIA GT in Europe. The national championships in Europe also weren't as strong as they are today. But now you have WEC, a possible ELMS for 2013 and strong national series. I honestly can't see where Blancpain would fit between all these series. Especially since all these series run on a single set of regulations. I only see a SLIGHT chance for Blancpain as a championship for truly private teams, in case the GT class in WEC becomes a manufacturer battlefield. But even then, you'd still have ELMS as an alternative for manufacturers.

Blancpain could survive a number of different ways. If it takes on the new regs it has been proven that its format is one which is perfect for gentleman drivers. That's more important than the cars I'd imagine.

And if they didn't go with the new machinery it would still survive for a while as a haven for GT3 cars given the huge number of them out there. But there could be no attached world championship from what I understand.

[GT3.14]

Originally Posted by DS"

@Speed-King: Back in the day, you only had LMS and FIA GT in Europe. The national championships in Europe also weren't as strong as they are today. But now you have WEC, a possible ELMS for 2013 and strong national series. I honestly can't see where Blancpain would fit between all these series. Especially since all these series run on a single set of regulations. I only see a SLIGHT chance for Blancpain as a championship for truly private teams, in case the GT class in WEC becomes a manufacturer battlefield. But even then, you'd still have ELMS as an alternative for manufacturers.

Where would the gentlemen drivers go then if WEC is works only and ELMS offers no Le Mans invites or 24 race? Blancpain would be the only option left. And if the Blancpain drivers were interested in sprint races they would have gone to a national series already, and some of them already do both.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by DS"

Why should it be a bad thing, if manufacturers start entering the GT classes in the WEC and LeMans? They could surely need a good number of entrants. It would also be cheaper for manufacturers, who don't want to enter LMP racing, but still want to present their marque in a World Championship.

By now The FIA/ACO has more interest in LMP Racing than GT's 22/56 against 33/56, whe fact which would not be divided among the 20 Brands GT3 (Or the ones i said in my last post) has, so there would be less variety.

Personally I don't like the moving chicane concept that Le Mans represent, even the fact i like the LMP concept more suitable for I+D more usefull for the society than GT's.

So the issue would be hard to implement nowadays GT3 variety, we will se brands not competing there, unless there was Factory support (Sure Ford,Camaro) and lots of others with lesser possibilities of factory support (Every brand not included in actual GTE).

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Blancpain could survive a number of different ways. If it takes on the new regs it has been proven that its format is one which is perfect for gentleman drivers. That's more important than the cars I'd imagine.

And if they didn't go with the new machinery it would still survive for a while as a haven for GT3 cars given the huge number of them out there. But there could be no attached world championship from what I understand.

Originally Posted by GT3.14

Where would the gentlemen drivers go then if WEC is works only and ELMS offers no Le Mans invites or 24 race? Blancpain would be the only option left. And if the Blancpain drivers were interested in sprint races they would have gone to a national series already, and some of them already do both.

Okay, you make good points here.

EDIT: Nevermind that!

This would still leave ELMS and Blancpain competing with each other, however. Unless gentlemen drivers in GT racing really want to compete badly for overall victories, that is. On the other hand, a series full of gentlemen drivers isn't really appealing to a racing fan, when you have pros running the same cars in other series.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

You just listed 12 manufacturers. If each brand brings 2 cars to Le Mans, that is 24 cars...this year at Le Mans there was 22 GT cars. So I don't understand what you are worried about.

The following series can accept this new unified class:
WEC (+ Le Mans)
ALMS/GRAND-AM (+Daytona, Sebring)
ELMS - if it is ressurrected
AsLMS - if it is successful

I don't mind about minor (Excuse me ALMS/GRAND-AM fans maybe) series divisions (Talking about seein all cars at WEC or minimum at 24h of Le Mans), and that's what i told, nobody here liked Ratel's One team x Brand x 2 cars stlye, don't tell me you will all like it now (Something to be changed i said). So it let me think it will not be done. So less variety = I prefer BES.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Salamus

You just listed 12 manufacturers. If each brand brings 2 cars to Le Mans, that is 24 cars...this year at Le Mans there was 22 GT cars. So I don't understand what you are worried about.

The following series can accept this new unified class:
WEC (+ Le Mans)
ALMS/GRAND-AM (+Daytona, Sebring)
ELMS - if it is ressurrected
AsLMS - if it is successful
BES
BSS
GT Open
Along with many national GT series

This makes so much sense. The sad thing is that I am waiting to see who tries to screw it up? The control freaks - Ratel? NASCAR? Time to put egos aside and embrace the global rules set boys.
IMO this is the most positive news for sportscar racing in a long time.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by DS"

Okay, you make good points here.

EDIT: Nevermind that!

This would still leave ELMS and Blancpain competing with each other, however. Unless gentlemen drivers in GT racing really want to compete badly for overall victories, that is. On the other hand, a series full of gentlemen drivers isn't really appealing to a racing fan, when you have pros running the same cars in other series.

ELMS and BES could merge, allowing for multi-class racing involving P2s and GTs. The series could be for pro or am drivers and distances between 3-6 hours. If teams wish to compete in sprint races, there is still GT Open, BSS, or the numerous national series.

[urdragon]

Global class GT Rules are perfect if the costs are cut anything else deals into stinct FIA GT series, remember that allways, its stupid to fall again in the same cycle.

Originally Posted by Salamus

ELMS and BES could merge, allowing for multi-class racing involving P2s and GTs. The series could be for pro or am drivers and distances between 3-6 hours. If teams wish to compete in sprint races, there is still GT Open, BSS, or the numerous national series.

With the GTclasses merged BSS & GT Open would be surelly redundant (Specially with this useless 2 continent Ratel's WC).

[Machin]

I'm interested to see how this one works out... GTE is a competitive (hence high cost) rule set, whereas GT3 is built to a pre-determined performance (and hence can be done relatively cheaply). I think the GT3 appeals to national championships because owners know they can buy their favorite brand of car and be competitive in it, whichever brand that is...

I'm struggling to see how those two formulas can mix...

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

By now The FIA/ACO has more interest in LMP Racing than GT's 22/56 against 33/56, whe fact which would not be divided among the 20 Brands GT3 (Or the ones i said in my last post) has, so there would be less variety.

Currently, LMP2 is booming and we all see that with many P2s in the WEC. However by 2015, P2 numbers will surely decrease. This could leave more space for GT cars in the future. Remember, this new class will not be implemented until at least 2015. A LOT can change in that time!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by DS"

@Speed-King: Back in the day, you only had LMS and FIA GT in Europe. The national championships in Europe also weren't as strong as they are today. But now you have WEC, a possible ELMS for 2013 and strong national series. I honestly can't see where Blancpain would fit between all these series. Especially since all these series run on a single set of regulations. I only see a SLIGHT chance for Blancpain as a championship for truly private teams, in case the GT class in WEC becomes a manufacturer battlefield. But even then, you'd still have ELMS as an alternative for manufacturers.

WEC is going to be wickedly expensive, no matter the actual ruleset, that's just the nature of the FIA-label and the kind of schedule they are running.

As for ELMS - we'll have to see where that goes, if 2012 is anything to go buy, there won't be a lot of interest from the GT3 ranks to run in that series. Sure, a unified ruleset and potential LM invites might help somewhat, but right now I wouldn't think of ELMS as a stronger series than BES. One has 40 cars on the grid, the other has 14...

Finally, I think we've seen the peak of most European national GT series for the time being. French GT was already pretty weak this year, British GT is doing somewhat better, but only has less than 20 proper GT3 cars as well -with the rest of the field being made up by national homologations, invitational cars and GT4s, and even ADAC GT seems to be in for some major shrinkage over the off season. With Kabel 1 most likely out of the picture, getting live TV will be quite a task and a lot of teams were less than thrilled with the way BoP was handled this year, so I think we'll be down to 25 cars or so next year.

Blancpain is going to be fine... it's the other series I am worried about.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

With the GTclasses merged BSS & GT Open would be surelly redundant (Specially with this useless 2 continent Ratel's WC).

Why would they be redundant? Where will the teams who want to race in Europe in a sprint format go?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Machin

I'm interested to see how this one works out... GTE is a competitive (hence high cost) rule set, whereas GT3 is built to a pre-determined performance (and hence can be done relatively cheaply). I think the GT3 appeals to national championships because owners know they can buy their favorite brand of car and be competitive in it, whichever brand that is...

I'm struggling to see how those two formulas can mix...

Here's how I would do it:

Create a GT3+ category with an actual ruleset. Those are the cars that are allowed to race in the ACO series.

At the same time, these cars form the backbone of the national and independent international series, but these series are allowed to BoP whatever cars they want into the same category as the ACO cars. So you can either build a car to the ruleset and go to LM, or ignore the ruleset and settle for a regional homologation and BoP.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Machin

I'm struggling to see how those two formulas can mix...

The merger of BES & ELMS is the issue, for me I prefer a GT lonely Championship to improve GT variety.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Why would they be redundant? Where will the teams who want to race in Europe in a sprint format go?

BSS is an European champ with one flyaway BSS=GTOpen. Copy and paste.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Here's how I would do it:

Create a GT3+ category with an actual ruleset. Those are the cars that are allowed to race in the ACO series.

At the same time, these cars form the backbone of the national and independent international series, but these series are allowed to BoP whatever cars they want into the same category as the ACO cars. So you can either build a car to the ruleset and go to LM, or ignore the ruleset and settle for a regional homologation and BoP.

Same here.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

BSS is an European champ with one flyaway BSS=GTOpen. Copy and paste.

GT3 cars are eligible in both series next year. So are you suggesting that one of them should fold?