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13 Apr 2002, 20:00 (Ref:259243) | #26 | ||
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I love both Zetec and Kent , both have there place ,.
but if you want cheap and reliable you can not beat Zetec ie you can get a 99/001 Van Diemen form anything like 5/8 k also you can pick up a good motor for top whack £2k , so you could have say a 99 Van Diemen on the button for 9k. it looks the muts nuts and it is eligeble for loads of racing world wide, and best of all unless you shunt it it will just run and run no rebiulding the motor for say 3 seasons , thats how good the Zetec engine is. |
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13 Apr 2002, 22:32 (Ref:259355) | #27 | ||
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Yes I meant between rebiulds.
I would have thought that tyres was one of the main running costs with a zetec. And with a Kent it would be the Engine. I estimate needing 2 sets for this year in the kent. |
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15 Apr 2002, 07:40 (Ref:260699) | #28 | |
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TVR
You are a top chap. BOTH types are the best |
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15 Apr 2002, 08:33 (Ref:260718) | #29 | |
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Mattray
I am surprised and in admiration of your tyre usage. My understanding was that later Kent cars work their tyres much harder. One of last year regional champions told me that, with his set up, a complete set of tyres was destroyed each race meeting - apart from perhaps one of the right hand tyres (which should tell you which circuit we are taling about) and that thus tyres were the biggest partof his budget by far. If Zetec tyres are a problem you could just limit them in 'club' series. Like the seniors are allowed 4 tyres per meeting and the juniors 2, 'club' races could have 1 new tyre per meeting (except your first meeting of course (and again excepting force majeure)). |
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15 Apr 2002, 09:10 (Ref:260746) | #30 | ||
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It's true ref: tyre usage on kent FF. I also used a 1 set of tyres for dry and 1 for wet. i used the dry set for 9 races, 10 qualifying, and 3 test sessions. Sounds a lot, but i also used them for the first race this year and won in class.
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15 Apr 2002, 10:26 (Ref:260801) | #31 | |
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The RF89 type Kent is easy on tyres. Later models only find their additional speed through greater mechanical grip, ie. tyre wear.
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17 Apr 2002, 07:36 (Ref:262756) | #32 | |
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Back in the old days (1980s) we had 4 national FF1600 championships supported by local series.
While we can't go back to the 4 main series perhaps, we should work on the regional series. These series used to be seen as pukka feeder series to the nationals but not any more. How many people have come through local FF1600 in recent years - a few - as opposed to the previous masses. Whether Kent drivers like to admit it or not, their series become more and more clubby each year. Average driver ages are going up and up (like the lap times generally) and if something isn't done NOW, these series will die, slowly perhaps but surely! All regional champs should have Zetec and Kent excpet perhaps Combe which is not really a regional championship, more a local one (albeit perhaps strong) |
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17 Apr 2002, 10:58 (Ref:262883) | #33 | ||
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Its all about the trends of the time, your right if something is not done the trend will go towards zetec cars for regional championships rightly or wrongly, but the trend of average driver ages will increase with the cost of competing. The more popular it becomes the more expensive it will get. The advantage that Kent cars have over Zetecs is that it cant really get much more expensive then it is. It is true that the engines will become more expensive as the parts become rarer but this is being looked into and a change is due soon.
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17 Apr 2002, 11:03 (Ref:262891) | #34 | ||
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And yes it is true that the more modern cars use their tyres better because they are stiffer, and have less mecahnical grip meaning that the weight is pushed onto the tyres. (my understanding of mecanical grip is that the softer the car the more mecahnical grip and the stiffer it is the less mechanical grip and the more gripis generated by the tyre)
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17 Apr 2002, 13:37 (Ref:263078) | #35 | |
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I haven't got the goggiest but I know what you mean
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18 Apr 2002, 12:18 (Ref:263865) | #36 | |
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So Mattray
I think we agree that: 1) Kents are easier to drive (an thus more fun for the less experienced 2) Kents generally do provide more spectacular racing 3) Kents/Zetecs probably don't cost all that different amounts to run, all in all. As time goes on more people are going to go the Jadlam route which must be more bloody expensive than the Zetecs 4) If the Kents aren't changed, things will die (slowly perhaps, but surely) So therefore, I put my original thought that we must move to a Zetec and Kent combined route regionally to ensure strength, longevity and, hopefully, have thriving, more meaningful series again in the future. If not, in a few years time we shall still all be on the forum lamenting the loss of these fantastic series. I urge everyone - campaign the BRSCC for change. Change for the Kent engine regs (marginally) Change for Zetecs to be allowed too in all series, albeit cost controlled where possible (ie tyres) I believe this is the only way to safeguard these wonderful championships WHICH WE MUST NOT ALLOW TO DIE! Just look at everyone going on about Vauxhall Juniors on this site.......... |
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18 Apr 2002, 19:22 (Ref:264224) | #37 | ||
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Very Well put 100%
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22 Apr 2002, 19:15 (Ref:267699) | #38 | ||
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I agree with points 1 and 2 but point 3 I dont because zetec is more expensive and always will be but I guess we are going to just have to disagree with that. The regs for the kents do need to be changed to allow it to continue as it has done, and not get more and more expensive. The Jadlam route is an exception and I cant see many people doing the same when they realise the cost of replacement parts.
The main point I dissagree with you on is that to maintain the kents they need to be combined with the zetecs. Will this not just dillute the championships we have now and make it even more confusing for the spectators? How can this be a good thing? Why not keep the strong kent championships kent based and do something to keep them strong and provide a zetec championship where there is a demand? |
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22 Apr 2002, 19:40 (Ref:267739) | #39 | |
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Just coming back to the tyre point, there is an inexhaustable supply of secondhand tyres available. The teams bin them after one race and test and would be happy to sell them on for 3/5ths of sod all. So your tyre budget for a season can be very low.
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22 Apr 2002, 20:33 (Ref:267845) | #40 | ||
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Some good points coming out here. But the kent is great for novices as any engine rebuilds can be with a little assistance be done yourself. There is nothing too complicated , no fancy, expensive and confusing electronics. A kent engine management system may consist of a £130 Lumenition Black box. As they run on carbs too any trackside repairs can be done with ease.
Both formulas have their place but please dont write off the kents just yet. £600 for a crank........dohhh just sold a complete engine for £150. |
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22 Apr 2002, 22:20 (Ref:267939) | #41 | ||
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When I did Kent County FF Zetec we were limited to 6 tyres a meeting + unlimited wets, you declared the tires you'd use a scritunering and they would mark them and take serial numbers in a little book, then compare after the race.
Use unregistered tyres without permission (qualify crash, etc.) and you were out, simple as that. Have they lifted this rule now? (I remember at the Festival after all was done nicking all of Van Diemens tyres out the skip, we had enough for all the testing for the following year!) Last edited by Ian-S; 22 Apr 2002 at 22:22. |
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23 Apr 2002, 09:10 (Ref:268210) | #42 | ||
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Ian-S,
The rule still exists in the Southern Formula Ford Zetec class and I think it's the same for the Kents too. It works too: at the Snett round MDR's Eddie James was chucked out of the results because he was running a different set of tyres as the ones submitted to the scrutineers. Mattray, Zetec isn't that expensive at all. Although I've spent more money on the car (which is only a year old) the running costs are very similar to my old Kent. The only thing that's cost me more money, so far this season, is testing and tyres. Everybody seems to get blinded by the costs of Zetec Formula Ford by looking at the bills the National and Avon Cup teams charge. Keith |
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23 Apr 2002, 09:35 (Ref:268226) | #43 | |
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Ahem, some agreement!
I thought the tyres were limited to 2 per meeting? The Combe and Oulton Kent series are strong. The South and Midlands are weak and should be more Zetec based. Matt, the problem with the "demand" is that you can't really tell that if they aren't being run at present. The Southern Zetecs has not really enough numbers but the Kents are struggling as much, if not more. Let the Zetecs into the midlands as a combined series and numbers would definitely go up. It may take a couple of years but, if no changes are made NOW, the series could be dead by then. People need to get over the new car bit on Zetecs. Look at the times done in 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998 and 1997 and you will see there has been little real improvement in speed. The 98VD was slower than the 97. The 99 VD was said to be a lot quicker yet the Mygale won in 98 and 99 and the Mygale 99 is the same car as the 98. The Mygale 2000 and 2001 are the same car too in reality and that car is upto current speed now. A 96 VD is quick too - 95s and earlier are probably a bit down but even then the 95, 96 and 97 VD has exactly the same rear end! An older Zetec can be competitive in local series - just as Matt has proved the RF89 can beat RF90s etc in Kent racing. |
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23 Apr 2002, 09:46 (Ref:268235) | #44 | |||
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Quote:
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23 Apr 2002, 10:02 (Ref:268243) | #45 | ||
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The costs of the national series are stupid, 200k plus for the season, crazy prices.
JR Ewing, you say the South and Midlands series are weak, 20 drivers or so at each race is not weak. Its not full grids but hey how many series in the uk have full grids. I agree with letting Zetecs in to the series. As I think I have said before was there not some big rule change in 97/98. If so have the Zetec class for these 'older' cars. The only trouble is where have all of these older zetec cars gone, yes there are a few around in the 750mc series, sprints, hillclims and Monoposto, but not the hundreds that have been made. And why has someone not brought out a series for 2-3 year old cars when zetecs first came out. |
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23 Apr 2002, 11:06 (Ref:268284) | #46 | |
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Please don't quote crazy prices, the Formula is suffering enough from 'Ford in Crisis' headlines without £200k budgets being put arround. Name one Team who has quoted that, if you can't name one please don't make things up. The factory Team may quote over £100k, maximum £120k but Team JLR quote £95k including all insurance, Marque cars offer an even cheaper deal with the Ray just ring them, I have. The senior grid at the weekend was 18 cars, same as A class F3 with more to come. Two privateer Team's and two manufacturers were on the podium in round 3
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23 Apr 2002, 11:31 (Ref:268312) | #47 | ||
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ok I might have been slightly wrong with the prices, but I am sure it is a bit more than 120k. I know from one person who compeated (ran the team) on a budget of about £40k last year and got the same results from someone who was spending top amounts. But still for what you compeating in it is very expensive, I am talking about the National zetec series here. The Junior series is a bit more cost effective. But then again you can spend what you like but if the team is not very good the young drivers will not go far. Do the prices you mention include accident damagge, because I know it is more than a grand per corner of the car to be repaired. Is that value the same for the kent engined cars??
Thing is where do all the chassis go after two/three seasons of racing, broken down for spares/scrap or left in a corner, go abroad?. Until a regional/national series takes off for older zetec chassis then the chassis will be left doing nothing. |
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23 Apr 2002, 11:45 (Ref:268333) | #48 | ||
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Ian-S,
That's right mate. Luke's dad isn't willing to pay the money, which is wicked! I think there should be others like him in the same position willing to make a stand. As far as crazy prices go, I've never heard of £200k budgets. I was quoted figures of £120k for National and £90k for Avon for 2002. However I recently heard that the cost for Senior Formula Ford for this year has been dropped to £80k. It's still pricey, especially when you consider that FFord is only supposed to be the second step of the 'Motorsport Ladder' . Keith |
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23 Apr 2002, 12:24 (Ref:268369) | #49 | |
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A very good link nice one, but ! Zetecs dont have to be that expensive at club leval, I won the 2001 kent county zetecs on 2 sets of tyres and one test day at the beginning of the year.
Having said that I wasnt a beginner so could get away with sod all testing, I agree that to learn how to drive zetec you would need alot of running time to be anywhere near the pace. Watching Matt at Coombe, theres no way you can get away with driving a Zetec if the way he drives his Kent, which is a shame because it looks bloody good fun. |
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23 Apr 2002, 12:40 (Ref:268385) | #50 | |
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20 cars Tony - Southern (Kent) does not have that many out and the Midlands has been bolstered for its first couple of rounds by people from Combe/Oulton using it as testing.
I think numbers will drop there from now on. The midlands people have had some good ideas - good prize money - the relaunched Master of Mallory all skirts the point. Have 2 classes - one kent, one zetec and the numbers would be up. The zetecs are quicker so the kents would have their "own race" without being mixed up into (irrelevant) classes for the spectators but they are not so much slower as to be lapped. Ideal surely?? |
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