[Rules] Did Red Bull Racing break the Resource Restriction Agreement?

[Adam43]

Great. So despite not knowing what Red Bull is meant to have done wrong and have no idea if this was agreed with the other teams we have accusations that everyone is out to get every other tream in any way possible and that they are are all up to it. Whatever it is.

[jab]

I think Ferrari probably exceeded the limit

And it was all planned out by Alonso. Every last detail

I know this because they are evil

[Adam43]

So after an extensive search for RRA and Red Bull all we know at the moment is

Originally Posted by Max

"At the last FOTA meeting on Thursday, Red Bull asked for amnesty for the non-compliance of the cost reduction plan.
If these reports are true, that can only mean one thing: Red Bull spent more than they are allowed to and now they are asking other teams to give them the okay. It will be interesting to see how their opponents react.

I tried to search for Max Mosely too and if all those reports are true then it will be interesting to see how his wife reacts.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Adam43

So after an extensive search for RRA and Red Bull all we know at the moment is

Most of the usual media outlets appear to be still on holiday. Give it time.

Meanwhile, If you Google Alonso, Ferrari and Evil.....

[Adam43]

It is one of those really serious stories that can wait. I can wait, I wish Max had.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It is one of those really serious stories that can wait. I can wait, I wish Max had.

Yes, I was one of those hoping that Max would slide gracefully away and not be popping up with his ill considered words, often I find to be confrontational to policies and upgrades to the system put in place by his far more efficient and worthwhile replacement as FIA head honcho.

I guess he has a right to speak when spoken to by journos looking for news when all those of relevance might be having their Christmas / New Year break. Ultimately what he is doing is totally non constructive ****-stirring and meddling in an area that is none of his bloody business any more.

He clearly is feeling a bit left out these days, and misses the media games he once played so well in days of old before he lost the knack..

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by medius

Yes, it has to be proven that the extra resources are directly improving the performance of the cars. Hiring 10 caterers gets you into Q2, hiring 30 gets you pole?

It's not that simplistic. If more fuel is injected into the engine, its very likely but not a certainty that it will produce more power.

[ASCII Man]

Ban them, ban them all!

Lotus Racing 2010 WCC Champions, I can dig that.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

It's not that simplistic. If more fuel is injected into the engine, its very likely but not a certainty that it will produce more power.

What the teams seem to have done mostly is limit things by numbers. Which still means that Ferrari or whoever can still spend $400,000,000 on a spanner.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

What the teams seem to have done mostly is limit things by numbers. Which still means that Ferrari or whoever can still spend $400,000,000 on a spanner.

Which should be allowed and possible, but it shouldn't be a performance differentiator.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Which should be allowed and possible, but it shouldn't be a performance differentiator.

It would have to be some special spanner to do that!

Unfortunately it's the little things like $1,000 for just one wheelnut that gets thrown away after it's been used once that really don't make a lot of sense. How much is that for wheelnuts alone in one season?

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by Marbot

It would have to be some special spanner to do that!

Unfortunately it's the little things like $1,000 for just one wheelnut that gets thrown away after it's been used once that really don't make a lot of sense. How much is that for wheelnuts alone in one season?

[devils advocate]

but that $1000 does make alot of sense though it if it prevents the wheel from falling off and subsequently costing $500,000 worth of damage against an armco barrier, (if a nut costs $1000 and a car uses say 24 through a race weekend thats $24,000 a weekend or (19GPs) thats 456,000 per year, so infact thats a $44,000 reduction in costs per year from fitting more expensive but throwaway wheelnuts compared to reusable but unreliable nuts......

[/devils advocate]

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by GolddustMini

[devils advocate]

but that $1000 does make alot of sense though it if it prevents the wheel from falling off and subsequently costing $500,000 worth of damage against an armco barrier, (if a nut costs $1000 and a car uses say 24 through a race weekend thats $24,000 a weekend or (19GPs) thats 456,000 per year, so infact thats a $44,000 reduction in costs per year from fitting more expensive but throwaway wheelnuts compared to reusable but unreliable nuts......

[/devils advocate]

I know what the wheelnuts do.


The point being that the wheelnuts don't need to cost anywhere near $1,000 each to do the job intended. The reason that they cost $1,000 each is not for reasons of reliabilty, but for reasons of performance i.e. lightness, which would in fact make them potentially more unreliable.

[Adam43]

Well maybe it is $1,000 because it is lighter and stronger? The world is littered with such examples.

In the situation being discussed here* I don't see why $1,000 on a wheelnut is a problem because it will not give a big performance gain. The increase in cost is disproportionate to the gain (in performance or reliability). Which is fine because a smaller team can spend $10 and still compete. That is the Pingguest's point surely? A $400m spanner is similar - it will be better (not the same), just not significantly better.

I thought all this was self evident?

*in the light of this being a nothing story at the moment.

[Marbot]

*

No. We still have no real idea of what it is that Red Bull have supposed to have done. I think that's the way it was initially intended to be all along.

Keep it dark!

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Marbot

It would have to be some special spanner to do that!

As we in The Netherlands used to say (translated): technology stands for nothing.

Unfortunately it's the little things like $1,000 for just one wheelnut that gets thrown away after it's been used once that really don't make a lot of sense. How much is that for wheelnuts alone in one season?

Maybe it doesn't, may it does. Usually teams were prepared to invest a lot of money on something with very little return on investments. However, I don't think teams will spend money on something that clearly wouldn't have a return at all.

At least the FIA should be the one to determine whether something makes sense.

[fomoco]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Max Mosley is currently insinuating that Red Bull Racing went over the limit on their 2010 resources.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/165678/...agreement.html

Under Max's watch, didn't Ferarri do similar?, when other teams excepted reduced testing, Ferrari clocked up a **** load of laps.

Poor old Max, waddle of to the parlor of fun with the whips and leathers.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Under Max's watch, didn't Ferarri do similar?, when other teams excepted reduced testing, Ferrari clocked up a **** load of laps.

Indeed they did. Ferrari broke a 'Gentlemens agreement'. Not a lot that Max or the FIA could have done about that.

The RRA is supposedly linked in with the concorde agreement, so perhaps it's more than just a Gentlemens agreement?

[E.B]

Did Ferrari not have the right of veto to any regulation change..... until they sided with FOTA and the FIA said basically 'all bets are off now', and that Ferrari were back with the proletariat because by joining FOTA the Marinello Mob were in breach of 'the FIA~Ferrari agreement'.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by fomoco

Under Max's watch, didn't Ferarri do similar?

No idea. What have Red Bull done?

, when other teams excepted reduced testing, Ferrari clocked up a **** load of laps.

So did Red Bull do extra testing?

[bella]

because i know how much you love this "story", here's a few figures thrown around regarding the possible overspend originally from la gazetta dello sport...

http://italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=30018&cat=1

[Marbot]

La Gazette Dello Sport have the "story". Now there's a surprise!

It seems that Red Bull have only overspent by the amount needed to run a couple more teams anyway. Can't see what all the fuss is about myself.

Although you might well be able to understand why the Italian media are making a fuss about it.

[bella]

they're treading on thin ice since i bet the scuderia ferrari division hide an awful lot of stuff like fabrication within the car division. mclaren certainly do - recently they ran an advertising campaign for fabricators and machinists, yet made it clear you wouldn't be employed by mclaren themselves, merely a contractor. perhaps they're blurring the line between the road car and f1 fabrication departments and making it difficult to track the costs for both. or more likely, you'd find the subbie ran at a huge loss on paper on a constant basis.

there's plenty of accountancy loopholes you can exploit both as a business and as a f1 team.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by bella

they're treading on thin ice since i bet the scuderia ferrari division hide an awful lot of stuff like fabrication within the car division. mclaren certainly do - recently they ran an advertising campaign for fabricators and machinists, yet made it clear you wouldn't be employed by mclaren themselves, merely a contractor. perhaps they're blurring the line between the road car and f1 fabrication departments and making it difficult to track the costs for both. or more likely, you'd find the subbie ran at a huge loss on paper on a constant basis.

there's plenty of accountancy loopholes you can exploit both as a business and as a f1 team.

TBH, the sort of thing that McLaren are apparently doing is 'easy-peasy' stuff for your average financial forensic detective company to go in and bust wide open.

Red Bull would have had to disclose everything, simply because not doing so would make it all the worse if they were found out by other means.

I'm sure that a team with Ferrari's resources is capable of 'keeping an eye' on its competitors.

[bella]

it doesn't matter if it's easy to "bust wide open" or not. it's whether it's within the terms of the agreement or not. if the terms of the agreement or any future agreements involve personnel directly employed by a team, subbies get around that.

it's more about making it difficult to track how much they're actually spending. who's to judge the actual cost of making a bespoke part? if you go round companies in the real world asking for a price for a widget, you'll get a wide range of prices. how are they going to prove that it doesn't cost £20000 to make that part, it costs £45000? if it's a subcontractor being overseen by a team directly they may be cutting out a lot of profit margin, their overheads might be different.

it's not about hiding the fact you're up to shenanigans. they all are, clearly. it's about making it as vague as possible to prove the actual amount they're spending.